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Comments

Psycho Milt

"...the Bible is still with us and still going strong but that old biology text is nothing but an historical oddity."

Exactly. And the lesson to be drawn from it is that science tends to weed out foolishness over time, whereas religion enshrines it as dogma.

robk

The same Darwinist science is in vogue today, the scientists who believe Darwinism are simply living with a dichotomy where their personal feelings override the logical extension of their Darwinist 'faith' - eugenics.

However look at the Netherlands and others who are moving to kill sick, old and 'useless' members of society. Darwinism is a big mover in this area, even today.

And yes, there are plenty of religious wackos who are right there supporting them, it is not just the atheist who is a Darwinist fundamentalist!

andrei

Exactly. And the lesson to be drawn from it is that science tends to weed out foolishness over time, whereas religion enshrines it as dogma.

Really Milt? - a great many religions have fallen by the wayside over the years, including some strange versions of Christianity, an ongoing process we are witnessing in our own times.

But the Truth is constant and eternal, with the faithful remaining as true to it as ever, much as they have done for the past 2000 years and will for the next.

Psycho Milt

There are presumably some actual, real-world phenomena which have inadvertently prompted you to create this bizarre fantasy, but it's hard to imagine what they might be. Help me out here.

Psycho Milt

Oops - comment above was addressed to RobK, not Andrei.

Psycho Milt

"...a great many religions have fallen by the wayside over the years..."
Yes, but the method by which they fall tends to be not that one religion was proved to be more useful or accurate than another, but that the political groups espousing one religion conquered the political groups espousing another. This seems to me a far less efficacious means of arriving at Truth than the scientific method.

andrei

Yes, but the method by which they fall tends to be not that one religion was proved to be more useful or accurate than another, but that the political groups espousing one religion conquered the political groups espousing another.

Well considering my particular faith has survived


  • three hundred years of persecution under the Romans before Constantine adopted it

  • subjugation after Islamic conquests from Arabia

  • the depredations of the Latin Crusaders (*)

  • Hundreds of years under the rule of the Ottoman Turks

  • and hostile atheist communist regimes

It should have long disappeared by your thesis Milt.

Rampant secularism is just the latest in a long line of attacks on the Christian faith, more subtle than the swords wielded by the followers of the Prophet perhaps but an attack never the less. Still it persists and will continue to do so despite the best efforts of the adversary.

(*) Lest I be misunderstood: The Crusaders were nominally Christians but nobody can claim they were doing the Lord's work when they sacked Constantinople.


Mickmac

What!

I don't believe you.

History shows us religion has caused all the wars in history.

And it's the fundamentalists who are to blame, especially the religious ones.

No reasonable, right thinking people who don't believe in a mythical old man in the sky are to blame for war or acts of genocide.

No it's those wicked deluded religious nutbars.

peter

Robk says:

"However look at the Netherlands and others who are moving to kill sick, old and 'useless' members of society. Darwinism is a big mover in this area, even today."

Big deal Robk. How exactly does this disprove the processes of evolution, and how does it invalidate the evidence of it discovered by Darwin?

Are you trying to say that if we fool people regarding evolution that people will behave better?

I am sorry but modern mankind won't wear that kind of thing any more.

The world IS becoming more secular and permanently secular. Read about Angela Merkel in today's NZ Herald - the signs are that we are going more communal, more liberal, even under the right wing govt of Merkel. Amazing I know, but there are sure signs that the golden age of unbridled capitalism is coming to an end. Some of the reasons are obvious to me - see if you can work it out too!

peter

Read all about it:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4252782a12.html

peter

Andrei says ..

".. a great many religions have fallen by the wayside over the years, including some strange versions of Christianity, an ongoing process we are witnessing in our own times .."

Seems like a reasonable assertion, but now I am racking my brains - trying to think of any Christian denomination or sect that has wound up in say the last 20 or 30 years.

Ideology is remarkably resilient. For examples there are still breakaway Roman Catholic churches performing liturgy in Latin! About 40 years on there are people who believe that God only understands Latin!

We have 7th day Adventists who don't understand that the entire allocation of days of the week to the calendar is arbitrary.

The Wesleyan Fellowship was set up as a more fundamentalist Methodist Church at a time when there were predictions that "the Methodist Church would split down the middle".

About 5 parishes actually split - they look shaky as hell - but they are still out there.

Andrei, do you know of any good examples of Christian denominations that have folded. Due to the excellence of indoctrination processes, people will believe the most stupid things and pass them on for generations. We have often discussed how long it takes for self-evident and well-demonstrated truths to be incorporated into religions - and I've said that one or two centuries is about right.

The criterion for religion is different from science. Doctrine will adapt once the career believers work out that a change will produce greater financial benefits than staying where they were. i.e. They will not stand to lose more members (and their revenue) than they will gain!

robk

peter

"Big deal Robk. How exactly does this disprove the processes of evolution, and how does it invalidate the evidence of it discovered by Darwin?"

Huh? I said nothing about evolution being disproved - I am saying this is an example of fundamentalist Darwinism in action!

PM

Can't quite follow your question. My understanding of the situation is this:

Eugenics is the natural outworking of Darwinism.

Eugenics involves the active promotion of 'superior races' and the active elimination of 'inferior'.

This involves restricting breeding, encouraging weak and old people to die and in extreme cases killing them when they would otherwise have lived.

These things are happening as we speak. The Netherlands are just a prominent example.

I am saying there are many scientists who reject eugenics because they have compassion in their hearts, and can not accept the logical conclusion of their belief in evolution.

robk

peter

"Due to the excellence of indoctrination processes, people will believe the most stupid things and pass them on for generations"

You're right, religions seem to have a knack for holding onto some strange ideas.

This seems to be innate in mankind, though, because scientists show the same propensity at times...

robk

peter

"the golden age of unbridled capitalism is coming to an end"

Where is this "unbridled capitalism"? Even the USA has a little socialism mixed in...

Maybe you mean the massive uptake of capitalism in China??? ;-)

peter

You are onto it Robk.

It is the massive application of (effectively) capitalism in countries like China and India that is bringing people to their sentences. Think about the increasing quantities of oil and natural resources they are consuming, and the growth that will occur as their standard of living improves.

Where do Christian fundamentalism and right wing devil-may-care attitudes fit into that?

robk

well, can't really speak for all but God has always required me to be responsible in my use of the earth's resources, and to leave my corner a better place than I found it.

I doubt the Chinese will listen to western preaching about pollution and consuming when we are 'users' more than 'caretakers'.

That said I suspect many environmental issues are beat-ups

robk

oops I meant "speak for all Christians". I'm not a loony fundamentalist right wing devil-may-care. Hell, no!

Psycho Milt

"PM
Can't quite follow your question."

I was seeking the basis for your belief that "Darwinism" (by which I presume you mean "Life Sciences") naturally leads to eugenics, and for your belief that this supposed enthusiasm for eugenics by life scientists is prompting the Netherlands govt, among others, to murder the old, the sick and the disabled.

Your later comment does actually answer my question: it seems your belief is based on a thorough misunderstanding of Darwin's contribution to the life sciences. I advise reading a simple introduction to the subject, but preferably not one written by fundamentalist Christian conspiracy theorists - that's quite possibly what led you to this misconception in the first place.

Re the murder of "useless" members of society, there's a difference between voluntary euthenasia and what you're claiming is being promoted. You might want to read up on the logical dangers inherent in the "slippery slope" argument once you've sorted out natural selection.

peter

Robw

You illustrate my point perfectly when you say:

".. God has always required me to be responsible in my use of the earth's resources, and to leave my corner a better place than I found it..."

Yet Christian fundamentalism (such as constantly demonstrated in Investigate magazine, and by like-minded Exclusive Brethrens) have always advocated right wing governments - even the vacuous alternative headed by Don Brash that offered nothing useful other than a tax cut!

Also, it will be interesting to see if National promote chopping hurdles in the Resource Management Act, cutting compliance costs - so that the pursuit of greed can override the desire of citizens to have sustainable futures.

If National does NOT offer this kind of thing, well they are not really like National are they?

I repeat - Christian fundamentalists and right wing extremists co-operate in elections so that the fundamentalists can provide money and people, and so that the greedy can have their windfall - in order to oppose socialism.

Change is in the wind.

Robk - many environnmental issues are beat-ups. But many are not. Or are you trying to say that environmental issues don't exist? Or are you (presumably like many other Christian fundamentalists) trying to accelerate towards the rapture predicted in Revelation?

robk

peter

"Also, it will be interesting to see if National promote chopping hurdles in the Resource Management Act, cutting compliance costs "

I have a friend who needed a resource consent to change the colour of a building from light grey to dark grey. This resource consent is costing $750. That, in my book is theft, and the costs need to come down.

"I repeat - Christian fundamentalists and right wing extremists co-operate in elections so that the fundamentalists can provide money and people, and so that the greedy can have their windfall - in order to oppose socialism."

That bit is hard to follow and sounds like propaganda...


"many environnmental issues are beat-ups. But many are not"

peter, I absolutely agree with you. I agree there are many pressing environmental issues, and money hungry people should not have a free hand.

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