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Comments

usabikes

"To defy modern knowledge and to stick to uninformed interpretations is truly irrational. To do so selectively is specially so. It is a reason why the churches are losing rational adherents."

Oh dear... that must mean I'm a knuckle-dragging, reactionary bigot. Drat, I always suspected it was so. Spose that means I have to burn my copies of (shameless name-dropping) Pascal and Kierkegaard now...

Several months ago I bumped into a very nice chap who was a practicing homosexual. We had an interesting conversation regarding the threat of strict Islam on the West during which he complained that the western Church has lost its way. The Church has ceased standing up for Biblical standards of morality. In his opinion this has played its part in the weakening of modern western culture.

This from a bloke who had left his wife and kids for a homosexual lifestyle. It seems that while he himself felt free to make his own decision in this area, he also felt that did not excuse the Church from its task to tell society such a choice was wrong and sinful.

At least he had the integrity to admit that the Churches teaching was correct but he was choosing to ignore it. Rather than the more typical stand of this judge who calls the whole lot bunk in order to defend his ego needs and intellectual 'integrity'.

He also (unlike some posters here for instance) was able to tell that people like me & those in the Church as a whole who did speak up & say that what he was choosing was sinful & harmful and that he would carry that rebellious sin with him forever - unless he repent and receive Jesus' strength to withstand such temptations - while still wishing him well and speaking up only out of a sense of love and concern.

Very refreshing.

ropata

I recall a parable about a city surrounded by a wall. The wall protected the city from the barbarian tribes that were keen to plunder the city. A man decided it would be OK if he made a small hole in the wall so he could sneak out and trade with the barbarians. Surely nobody would notice a small exception in this one special case?

However, the law of sowing and reaping cannot be avoided. Judge Kirby is attacking morality itself, in a veiled attempt to justify his own sin.

peter

Justice Kirby is on the high moral ground here chaps, sorry to disagree as usual.

And of course a man with his legal standing, logic and eloquence will run rings around the average Anglican vicar any day of the week.

Key quotation from Justice Kirby:

"To defy modern knowledge and to stick to uninformed interpretations is truly irrational. To do so selectively is specially so. It is a reason why the churches are losing rational adherents."

This is ONE HUNDRED PER CENT factual. Notice that he is not talking about the loss of gay adherents, but RATIONAL adherents.

The vicar comes out of this looking dopey. The Anglican Church is a modern liberal mainstream organisation - they do not need guys like this tarnishing their reputation.

Andrei - it would be very convenient for people like you if these humiliations were kept private. Justice Kirby has nothing of this nature to confess, and nothing to apologise for. Let's hear about it!

Let the (shocked) leaders of Anglicans around the world respond.

Frankly, I think Justice Kirby is the kind of member that the Anglicans would treasure.

usabikes

"The vicar comes out of this looking dopey."

Peter your faith in the fairness and impartiality of Sydney newspapers is really quite touching.

"Frankly, I think Justice Kirby is the kind of member that the Anglicans would treasure."

And he is, everywhere the Bible & honesty is subordinated to contemporary western cutural self-immolation, which is the point...

peter

USA Bikes says

".. everywhere the Bible & honesty is subordinated to contemporary western cutural self-immolation, which is the point..."

Honesty? The man is gay! What is dishonest about that?

Cultural self-immolation? Who says culture is right or fair? Or tradition for that matter?

You completely miss the point - that rational people are moving on. They are all around me. They are staging funeral services at the cemetery with lay celebrants. They are staging weddings on hilltops with lay celebrants.

Systems and beliefs can be useful over a period of time. But when they outlive their usefulness, they need to be retired!!!

peter

Interesting word BTW usabikes - self-immolation.

Definition: "Self-immolation is the act of self-sacrifice by suicide. Literally, “immolation” implies suicide by fire, but the term also includes other forms of self-sacrifice"

Christians have tended to indulge not in immolation but in murder by fire - at the stake.

I was just reading this morning how some Christians were burning other Christians for their beliefs at the stake in the reign of Queen Mary. Hundreds of 'em in just 3 years. This included distinguished clerics such as Thomas Cranmer.

Jim

Peter says:

rational people are moving on.

Straight over the cliff and into the sea...

Go, lemmings! Go!

Christians have tended to indulge not in immolation but in murder by fire - at the stake.

And this was yesterday, was it? Just now you are going to start drivelling on about the Crusades again, aren't you? YAWN!

Honesty? The man is gay! What is dishonest about that?

Lets see... He knows the churches position on Homosexuality (that it is considered a sin) and yet he complains about being told to repent (which is exactly what you can expect from a priest who is doing his Job properly). Seems like a hidden agenda to me...


usabikes

"Honesty? The man is gay! What is dishonest about that?"

That he tries to argue that the historic teaching of the Church on the matter is archaic without taking responsibility for his own actions & self-delusion. The fact is acting out sexually in any way apart from monogamous marriage is a sin according to the New Testament. Either believe it or not, don't try to say the NT doesn't say this when it obviously does.

Christians burning others at the stake -
its interesting to know that almost universally the victims were garotted before being burned. So not 'quite' as barbaric as it might seem.

But really the fact is that this matter reflects just another occasion where the Church has been swamped by the power of its surrounding culture. We can find no justification for these executions in the New Testament - the impetus came from the culture at the time. How then can you complain when by appeal to the Bible we are now decrying the current deranged emphases of our own cultural malaise?

Now as for the enlightened atheist regimes which slaughtered tens of millions of there own people and continue to do so today - to what can we attribute this anomaly? No god to blame there...

peter

USA Bikes says:

"Now as for the enlightened atheist regimes which slaughtered tens of millions of there own people and continue to do so today - to what can we attribute this anomaly? No god to blame there..."

Agreed USA Bikes. Never blame a god, blame those in power who have paid lip service to religion but pursued personal agendas. Religion is irrelevant here and irrelevant when Christian slaughters Christian. The irrelevanace of religion is illustrated time and time again.

To suggest that the Church was swamped by the surrounding culture in the time of Queen Mary furtherr emphasises my case. Surely with the power of the monarch (assumed to have divine rights), the power of the pope (when monarch was Catholic) plus the strong conformity of the population meant that religion should have been driving culture!

It is weird to link "Truth" in the heading of this thread with the New Testament. New Testament is about authenticity, belief and relevance - all subjective measures.

The word truth must not lose its meaning.

The New Testament is weak on the point under discussion. The New Testament has been rendered obsolete by social developments and law changes dating back 20 years. Rational people have moved on.

Rick

Anglicans: pointing out their stupidities is like shooting fish in a barrel. Their motto is "Politics Before God"

usabikes

Peter, I'm so sorry, what was I thinking?! Must have been one of my irrational days...

Or, maybe.... power does not necesarily equal culture? And certainly power has nothing at all to do with truth. You've always had this wee obsession over religion being about power though haven't you...

Christians say that Truth is a person (Jesus) not simply a proposition. Show me something self-contradictory in Jesus please.

Maybe I'm just being irrelevant again. I think I'll have a cup of tea and a nice lie down.

KevOB

"...The New Testament has been rendered obsolete by social developments and law changes dating back 20 years..." Peter the Atheist.

Yeah right!

Jim Kiwi

Peter wrote: "Justice Kirby is on the high moral ground here chaps"
And that comes from someone who doesn't believe in objective morality???
You suit your self when it is convenient, right Peter?

Jim Kiwi

Paula

"...The New Testament has been rendered obsolete by social developments and law changes dating back 20 years...

BUT some of us have not been swamped by the power of our surrounding culture.

Paula

Evan though many would like to close us down when we get too close to the truth !!!!

Rick

Peter is becoming a parody of his type. How can I be sure that Andrei or Ian haven't created this blog dweller themselves?
"HA HA HA..."

reid

peter:

"The New Testament is weak on the point under discussion. The New Testament has been rendered obsolete by social developments and law changes dating back 20 years. Rational people have moved on."

And yet the Bible remains the biggest best-seller in history.

The homosexual issue is an interesting one isn't it. I have a close family member who is, and I cannot see that it's a choice or that he was "tempted" into it. I mean why would an otherwise straight man think it was titillating to think about gay sex? I never have, I don't know any other straight men that have. Yet, the Bible is clear on the issue, and that clarity is not a result of a 19th century misinterpretation as Justice Kirby alleges. Check the old translations.

It's an unresolved issue for me. But it's not a show-stopper in terms of my faith, there is too much rational evidence for the existence of God to allow such a relatively minor issue to interfere with recognising that mountain of logic.

peter, of course you don't understand. You're too busy finding reasons to deny the evidence, and as in everything in life, you get what you focus on. Why don't you pray for objectivity and insight, and then lookup the adventures of your namesake in the NT?

peter

Rick - what an excellent post:

'Peter is becoming a parody of his type. How can I be sure that Andrei or Ian haven't created this blog dweller themselves?
"HA HA HA..."'

You are right, if people like Fugley and I did not exist, we would need to be invented. Ha Ha Ha!!!

Reid says:

"And yet the Bible remains the biggest best-seller in history."

Well thanks to people like Gideons quite likely. The Bible remains a visible trophy on many bookshelves I have seen - often purchased, occasionally read, rarely understood.

Reid - your honesty regarding homosexuality is refreshing. Your logic is rational, and no doubt in line with Justice You refer to it as "a relatively minor issue". I don't see it as a minor issue for your close family member or others like him. I see no barrier in resolving it giving your circumstances.

From there, it becomes a matter of principle and opinion - is this unresolved issue a completely isolated one, or does it reveal ugly characteristics for a movement that professes to be a force for love, peace and harmony?

Having said that, progressive and more liberal churches like the Methodists and I believe some arms of the Anglican church have dealt with your dilemma successfully. Diversity exists, diversity matters.

reid

peter, I don't give a toss what my church, or anyone else, says about any particular issue. My relationship with God is mine and mine alone. I go to church not to be indoctrinated but to get insight and to be challenged. I'm an Anglican and the ABC is not keen on homosexuality, that doesn't bother me in the slightest.

To me my close family member's sexuality is a relatively minor issue, in the context of whether or not I should practice my faith. There is no question in my mind, that I should. Even if it was my issue, I wouldn't have a problem, and indeed my close family member is also moving into the faith. My point was I guess, that it's a difficult thing to reconcile, since unlike any of the sins, deadly or otherwise, it does not seem to me, that it's a choice.

John Boy

"The vicar comes out of this looking dopey. The Anglican Church is a modern liberal mainstream organisation - they do not need guys like this tarnishing their reputation."

I agree. This bloke should be in a Christian Church, not a nice inclusive club that changes the founding charter to suit unacceptable behaviour.

Thousands of years of development gets tossed aside because a few gays have got a status larger than life in the last 20 years. I guess that's why the finance companies are going bust - we didn't learn from the last crash and the one before and the one before and the one before...

Continually cocking it up is not progress.

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