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Comments

Acid Comments

"Anyway he was tried before the ICTY and last week acquitted, no surprise there. In fact the only surprise about this whole farce is the fact the chief prosecutor Karla del Ponte admitted that his trial was a worthless because everybody knew that anyone who testified against him would not have a very bright future. Particularly so since unlike most defendants before the ICTY, he was not held in custody while awaiting trial but allowed to return to Kosovo to continue his "political" activities. "

Yeah. That's why the whole former Yugoslavia war crimes trials are a farce.

Not to mention all the Croatians who got of scot free for their butchery this time around aswell. Along with the worst Bosnian Muslim elements!

peter

NATO was right.

Serbia is paying the price for it track record.

Milosevic was a nasty piece of works. His legacy will remain for years and years. Just like Saddam Hussein's legacy in Iraq.

I have NO IDEA where this apologising for Serbia is coming from. Can someone explain how extreme right wing Christian fundamentalism finds an ally in Serbian Orthodoxy?

Anti-Muslim I understand. Anti-Catholic .. I understand that but not so overt.

Acid Comments

"I have NO IDEA where this apologising for Serbia is coming from. Can someone explain how extreme right wing Christian fundamentalism finds an ally in Serbian Orthodoxy?"

Actually Peter.

It's quite a simple equation.


While the Serbs have been made out to be the Big Bad Ogre.

All the other Groups Croatians, Bosnian Muslims and Kosova Albanians have done the same and often worse, but guess whose getting the War Crime inditements. The Serbs, while the rest of the perpetrators have got off scott free for doing worse crimes or similar! The same thing happened that way during WWII aswell!


peter

Acid Comments - so they have all sunk to the same level then according to you.

Now explain why Kosovo under domination from Serbia is good for Kosovans.

At this stage this looks just like more rubbish from the minds of fundamentalists to me.

God, can't even agree with George W Bush when is he on the right track for once!!

Ha Ha Ha !!!

peter

Found on BBC site:

"Yugoslavia was created by the consent of the Serbs, Slovenes, and Croats. Albanians never consented, agreed, voted or expressed any desire to be part of it, but instead were dragged in by their chains and put into an union of southern slavic people.
Albanians are not slavic, let alone Serbian, nor do they have any communality with those people neither by language, culture, national spirit, alphabet, religion, historical perspective, national expectation or any other ingredient one might choose to define a nation. The question of independence is a simple one: will these people be allowed to have their own destiny or will they be collectivelly slaves of somebody's manipulation of history, and spend the rest of their lives chained by the mythology of a 14th century tzar? I hope the western democracies will be wise enough and uphold the values of freedom and democracy, and allow the people of Kosovo to vote and decide on their own future."

Hear Hear.

Objectors to their independence are mainly so because of the precedent as they see it. So thats it - conservatism - which maps to extreme right wing Christian fundamentalism,

Solved!

Acid Comments

"God, can't even agree with George W Bush when is he on the right track for once!!

Ha Ha Ha !!!"


Yeah Peter.

Put it this way. If there was another American Civil War and a number of States decided to leave the Union. The US Feds and Military would clamp down on it. So what makes the Former Yugoslavia any different from trying to protect it's territory. The same for Russia and Chechnya (mind you worse atrocities happened there) and not to mention the USA/NATO didn't bother to bomb Russia or other countries having similar issues during the period.

Plus it seems it's OK for Bosnia and Kosovo to be major Underworld crime holes. The same elements behind the crime rings etc in those new countries now run them!

peter

Have you not heard Acid Comments, that Texas is a substantial STATE already with considerable autonomoy. The United States is by definition a union of self-governing states. Australia is similar.

In some respects, you could already compare Texas with France - it is just a question of where the autonomy begins and ends - US and Texas versus EU and France.

I have not heard that Texans speak anything but English, I've not heard that the governor has authorised any ethnic cleansing. Texas leaving the United States would be like Queensland leaving Australia - these are major components of the amalgamated body.

Chechnia is an interesting case. Landlocked within Russia isn't it? But suffice to say that if a state cannot govern a segment of their own population, they run the risk of being disliked.

Acid Comments

"Have you not heard Acid Comments, that Texas is a substantial STATE already with considerable autonomoy. The United States is by definition a union of self-governing states. Australia is similar.

have not heard that Texans speak anything but English, I've not heard that the governor has authorised any ethnic cleansing. Texas leaving the United States"


All sides in former Yugoslavia conflict were doing a form of 'ethnic cleansing'. And it was the Croatians who did the first lot and coined that term.


Not to mention a percentage of those 'ethnically cleansed' turned out to be self inflicted. Partically in the Bosnia conflict. Official NATO investigation reports state. Upto 50% of the alleged Serb atrocities in Sarajevo (the infamous snipings on the streets of Sarejevo were Bosnians Muslims sniping Bosnian Muslims for starters!)

Texas has in recent years thought about full independence from the USA, so has WA in Australia.

There's also the Atzalan liberation issue. Hispanic-Americans who want the former Mexican and Spanish Territories of the USA independent or reunited with Mexico with all the millions of illegal Hispanics in the USA, now they could make for an interesting Civil War!

Plus the US Feds have an on going problem with a Puerto Rican liberation group who're considered terrorists who want the Territory of Puerto Rico free of USA influence.

peter

I have the problem that I cannot link the preferences of Kosovo to the track record of the (Roman Catholic) country of Croatia or Muslim Bosnia. We are talking Serbia and Kosovo specifically.

I have met quite a few people from Kosovo and not one of them has said they are Serb or Yugoslav. In that sense they appear to be more parochial than Queenslanders or even Texans.

Perhaps the French Canadian case may have some weak parallels. Here you have plenty of ancient history of bad blood but nothing recent. I can't recall the results of the last referenda or surveys - someone around here will know more.

Certainly there are some issues around the southern border of the USA but I have not heard that the Mexican government is arming up. It is a long border and must be a nightmare to control it.

It strikes me as illogical that those north of the border would crave the reduced prosperity of switching to Mexican rule. But fundamentalist Christians can dream up a conflict (beyond the call of duty) at a drop of a hat I find.

Acid Comments

"I have met quite a few people from Kosovo and not one of them has said they are Serb or Yugoslav. In that sense they appear to be more parochial than Queenslanders or even Texans."

Then that also applies to the Basques of Spain and their conflict and the Kurds in their conflict against the Turks!


Psycho.Milt

The Yugoslavian authorities tried to restore order but Nato stepped in.

This wins my personal award for funniest political euphemism of the month.

peter

OK Acid Comments

Tell me the best outcome for the Kurds of Iraq!

You seem to think that any lines drawn on maps are ordained by a god or something.

Actually at one stage I heard that a Kurdish nation taking in Turkish Kurds, Iraqi Kurds and any other Kurds would be an elegant solution. I have no idea how practical this would be but I would support any steps taken to free the Iraqi Kurds for the same reason as I support Kosovo. Some issues would need to be resolved:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/daily/feb99/kurdprofile.htm

I am surprised that noone here has a good word for either George W Bush or Tony Blair regarding their thoughts on Milosevich and the Serbs.

andrei

"I have NO IDEA where this apologising for Serbia is coming from. Can someone explain how extreme right wing Christian fundamentalism finds an ally in Serbian Orthodoxy?"


Anti-Muslim I understand. Anti-Catholic .. I understand that but not so overt.

That has to be the funniest thing you have ever posted in a comment.

And I wonder if you will ever figure out why.

andrei

The Yugoslavian authorities tried to restore order but Nato stepped in.

This wins my personal award for funniest political euphemism of the month.

Civil Wars, like all wars are nasty businesses
Slobodan Milošević became President of a country that was torn apart, partly from reasons involving its own history and partly because of the territorial ambitions Western Europe to expand into the Balkans.

He lost, so he is demonized.

Abe Lincoln Presided over a country tearing itself apart and there was a civil war there to that cost 500,000 lives. He won and is now considered one of the greatest Presidents of the USA.

Get my drift.

As Acid comments has pointed out earlier in this thread "ethnic cleansing" is something that began in WW2 in the short lived Republic of Croatia.

You have probably never heard of Jasenovac
a place that even horrified the Germans that saw it.

Its main purpose was to exterminate Serbs.

peter

Far from getting your drift Andrei, I am staggered that this thread has run so far adrift.

Too much energy is being wasted in trying to determine who started ethnic cleansing, too little on trying to reduce it in the future.

Only one thing is clear and relevant if all to be believed - the concept is embedded in the various cultures throughout the region.

Andrei - I've told you this before, but it is important to READ the links you provide to us to ensure the interpretation you put on them is the intent of the article.

In this case, believe it or not, you needed to read no more than the first paragraph!:

"After Germany and its Axis allies invaded Yugoslavia in April 1941, the Nazis permitted the fascist and terrorist Ustaša organization to found the Independent State of Croatia (Nezavisna Država Hrvatska). The new regime was highly dependent upon German support for survival."

Get the drift? This became part of the NAZI empire. The Croatians involved were HIGHLY DEPENDENT on the Nazis to survive. We all know that Nazis were among the hugest ethnic cleansers in all time - if they had not invaded Croatia what would have happened?

Nazi collaboration was of course a feature of Vichy in France and others - where French citizens collaborated with Nazis to deport Jews.

I can't see the parallels between the truly heroic Lincoln and truly disgraceful Milosevic. But it is typical of the tripe we are served up from time to time.

These continuing comparisons between stable countries like USA and simmering hot spots like the old Yugoslavia would be funny, were the nature of the deceit not so serious.

Who next? Shall we compare Milosevic with Churchill?

andrei

Was the USA a stable country in 1860 PM? It became stable after a civil war and 500,000 dead.

I carry no truck for Milosovic, but as President of Yugoslavia his job was to hold it together and to restore order where disorder existed.

True or false?

And do you think there is no blood on the hands of Ramish Hajradinaj who was acquitted last week?

Or what of the blood spilled by Nato when they fought the Kosovo war to wrest control of Kosovo from Yugoslavia?

And why isn't Bill Clinton under indictment for what he did during that war?

peter

Abraham Lincoln was on the moral high ground, surely:

http://library.thinkquest.org/CR0212302/abrahamlincoln.html

Christian fundamentalists constantly extol the virtues of William Wilberforce for what he put through parliament to abolish slavery. Well lets give credit to the man at the coal face, shall we?

But then I have sent that many extreme right wing Christian fundamentalists are not concerned with human rights, but the privileges of their own economic and ethnic position. i.e. The theory is to make a minority rich so they can offer Christian charity to the poor and enslaved. Convenient!

KevOB

"But then I have sent that many extreme right wing Christian fundamentalists are not concerned with human rights, but the privileges of their own economic and ethnic position. i.e. The theory is to make a minority rich so they can offer Christian charity to the poor and enslaved. Convenient!"

It is the work of the devil to speak of good as evil.
"By their works shall you know them..."

reid

MOSCOW -- Russia has called on the international forces in Kosovo, EU and NATO to act sensibly, fairly, and strictly within the mandate entrusted to them by the UN.

Sergei Lavrov (FoNet, archive)
Sergei Lavrov (FoNet, archive)

In a statement, the Russian Foreign Ministry says that “according to information coming from certain Western media, the international forces in Kosovo are preparing operations against the Kosovo Serbs with the aim of provoking them.“

The groundwork is being put in place for a big application of force against the Serb population in Kosovo, with the aim of pacifying them following the declaration of independence, reads the statement.

Psycho.Milt

Was the USA a stable country in 1860 PM?

I'd be willing to argue this Lincoln vs Milosevic thing if Lincoln had been indulging an interest in killing or expelling ethnic minorities. He wasn't.

I carry no truck for Milosovic, but as President of Yugoslavia his job was to hold it together and to restore order where disorder existed. True or false?

True. Such a pity that wasn't his intention. If you define the actions of Milosevic, Karadzic, Mladic, Raznatovic etc as "restoring order," I just hope you're never put in charge of restoring order in this country, Andrei...

And do you think there is no blood on the hands of Ramish Hajradinaj who was acquitted last week?

No doubt he's cut from the same cloth as Karadzic. Lets milosevic off the hook how exactly?

Or what of the blood spilled by Nato when they fought the Kosovo war to wrest control of Kosovo from Yugoslavia?

Well, many of us which that blood had been spilled much earlier, when the Serbs were laying waste to Bosnia. But better late than never.

And why isn't Bill Clinton under indictment for what he did during that war?

The winners of wars don't try themselves for war crimes. Was true at Nuremberg and true now. We won't see Bush sitting in the dock at the Hague either. That's why war crimes trials are stupid.

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