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« New ‘catastrophe’ climate report authored by discredited scientists | Main | Marc my words... »

Comments

George

So one station with a legitimate move is explained and that is supposed to explain why so many of them all received adjustments in the same direction? Generally temperatures are expected to be adjusted downward over time to compensate for urbanization. You don't adjust the past cooler.

They don't need to go through every individual station one at a time in order to create the appearance if it being quite a chore. Simply release the adjustment that has been applied to the station data. People are smart enough to find out if a station has been moved, that information should be in the station records. If there is a problem with one or more stations that have not moved but have been adjusted, those specific examples can be addressed.

I don't think anyone is trying to harass anyone, they are simply trying to understand why so many stations seem to have all been adjusted in the same direction over the same period of time. Did they all move at once? Somehow that seems doubtful.

Cliff Millam

Wow Alexa, thanks for clearing this all up! By all means let's not ask anymore for data and methodology. I mean that whole open scientific method is sooooo passe don't you think. We should believe them. They are SCIENTISTS and this whole wrongheaded approach of open discovery and ablility to recreate results to confirm theory is a waste of valuable time after all.

AcidComments

"Wow Alexa, thanks for clearing this all up! By all means let's not ask anymore for data and methodology."

Yep.

All you could say it goes sort of like this:

Just believe and do everything we say. We're scientists we're the perfect GOD Like beings.

When we say jump.. you jump. When we say stick your head in noose... stick your head in a noose. WE always know what's best for you. WE are perfect we don't make mistakes...Mistakes are for you inferior people who're not scientists...Compute... so always except the data...except the data....No Matter how much we fiddle the data...we fiddle the data...or Hide the data...or hide the data...Compute.

Doug

The late Professor Augie Auer knew Salinger fiddled numbers, And even suggested NIWA be shut down.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/SC0704/S00001.htm

Budgieboy

Well done Ian, this is the leading story @

http://www.memeorandum.com/

First link I clicked on had entirely reposted everything above.

I get the feeling the pressure is starting to build, even as the media try's to ignore it.

Brian

Wratt hates to justify anything to anyone. The fact that he's a public servant has long escaped his superior intellect. Mere plebians and other scientists should not be allowed to question his superior knowledge.

R2D2

OK Wratt, so what your saying is global warming so far has had the catastrophic effect of making Kelburn's weather equal to Thorndon's 100 years ago? Whats next? Oriental Bay??!!

Cliff Millam

http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2009/11/iowahawk-geographic-the-secret-life-of-climate-researchers.html

R2D2

Hokitika adjusted +0.89, that would require a movement of the temperature station 137 metres. Does Hokitika have this kind of altitude variation?

bill

I wonder if anything is known about Wratt's educational background. The clip above makes him seem pretty stupid, bluster + whining nonsense about 'my staff'. maybe he is displaying the narrow mindedness and inability to cpmprehend criticism which are hallmarks of the half educated. It turns out that Professor OPhil Jones, the man at the centre of the CRU scandal did his first degree at the University of Lancaster 1970 -73. What that means is that Jones, at 18, was pretty stupid, definitely in the bottom 40% of his Sixth Form. Stupidity isn't something you grow out of. Learning, even bogus learning, can disguise it, but it doesn't go away.

Richard Treadgold

It seems Dr Wratt became angry quite quickly. Too quickly?

WRATT: "Basically it’s not up to us to justify ourselves to a whole lot of people that come out with truly unfounded allegations."

Dr Wratt, you created an inconsistency between the data and the graph, on your web site. We've just noticed it and now we're asking how it happened. Any "allegations" were inferred by you and not implied by us.

WRATT: "We work through the scientific process, we publish stuff through the literature, that’s the way that we deal with this stuff and I can’t have my staff running around in circles over something which is not a justified allegation."

Oh, so there have been scientific studies done on these station adjustments? We'd like to see the papers. Would you kindly provide references, please? But there's no need to be getting yourself upset! We agree you shouldn't "run around in circles" over unjustified allegations. On the other hand, we have a different opinion of your proper response to questions.

WRATT: "I’ve told you we’ll put out information about Wellington."

Look, we've been talking amongst ourselves, and we've decided that Hokitika might make a more interesting case than Wellington. We'd like to know why such large adjustments were made, since nothing even slightly interesting has happened there in the last 15,000 years. So if you're going to put out figures, would you please give the adjustments and reasoning for Hokitika instead? Yes, that would be far more useful, thanks.

My goodness, this could go on for ages. We need more popcorn.

There's more on www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz

Thanks for your support.

Richard Treadgold,
Convenor,
Climate Conversation Group.

Richard Treadgold

Alexa: "What's fraudulent is for someone to take raw data, analyse it incorrectly, and then claim it's all a scam. Denialists demand raw data, and when they get it, they pull this sh*t... and you wonder why the guy's angry?"

No, Alexa, we noticed their graph showed strong warming, then that the data they provide does not. NIWA themselves demonstrate the discrepancy. The CliFlo database, by the way, is quite brilliant -- a good return for the taxpayer, and it's free!

We got the raw data and simply graphed it with no modifications -- no analysis, and no expectations either. We got a surprise! The paper shows the two graphs and asks the natural question: why the difference? Why do the raw data produce no trend at all while the adjusted data show strong warming? There are other questions, too, such as: are only seven stations sufficient to describe the whole country's temperature history? There are many score to pick from.

We do not, and you cannot have read the paper for yourself to verify this, call it a "scam". You are incorrect to imply that we do. You call us denialists, so please describe what it is we deny (apart from this).

Wratt has so far said only that there are reasons for the adjustments, but we demand to know the full details and reasons for them. It's not enough any longer, in the current climate of distrust, to say "trust us". Full explanations are essential.

There was a time, not too long ago, when nobody cared about the national temperature record; we all had far better things to be going on with! But now, we're being taxed more because the temperature is (apparently) going up, because we (apparently) have been working too industriously. So it's suddenly a matter of vital national interest and questions get asked in the Parliament!

Dr Wratt also said that explanations have already been given to the Coalition, but they were not, at least nobody in the Coalition can remember them. I don't think he's recalling the matter accurately, but we will be asking him what those explanations were and to whom they were sent.

In the meantime, our core questions are simple: what, precisely, were the changes made to the temperature readings at these seven stations and why were they made? We're entitled to ask these questions, as taxpayers, of our public servants and to expect a full and honest response.

Cheers,
Richard Treadgold.

John S

I can accept the Wellington adjustment as explained and by looking at the raw data. I think NIWA has used this as an example of robust adjustments deliberately .. because if you look at the data for Hokitika and Lincoln (which accounts for 2 from 7 sites) they have made adjustments in the middle of a series from a single continuous site. I ould love to know how you can possibly change (downwards the temperatures for some periods from the same site back in the 30's.

Also why not just use the longest running sites for this excercise?

Alec, a.k.a  Daffy Duck

Alec Rawls noted Urban Heat Island effect...

That Station was moved in 1928 and the adjusted up by .8c


Must ask them if and how much they adjusted for UHI for that station!!!!!

twawki

If you want more climate massage then just go to the Bureau of Meteorology!

russ wood

global warming is nothing more than a communist plot.when the Berlin wall came down they infiltrated and eventually took over the environmental movement.it also has a lot to do with greed. the biggest supporters of this are corrupt politicians that are heavily invested in green technology, like Americas AL GORE.

Steve Rowe

Why hasn't any of this climategate info made the TV news? Just like WMD's and the lack of reporting leading upto the financial crises our media has failed us once again. But you watch them all jump on the bandwagon when they want war with Iran.

Larry Hulden

I want to make a comment to
Alexa | November 26, 2009 at 06:26 PM
... If you bother to go to the NIWA data yourself ...
The basic problem is to get all data, algorithms and code for any claim of analysis. It is not enough to say that all data is there. This problem is very obvious with Phil Jones who says that all data has been released but nobody knows where. Next problem is that it is not obvious which data was used. A further problem is that the exact algorithm is not released. At the end of the day we actually don't know anything of how the published result was produced. Finally we do not know who approved these results to be published.
Larry Hulden
Finnish Museum of Natural History

Elmar

ONe word: data smoothing. When you make such a graph, it makes more sense to plot means of several years instead of just the data from every year. Scientifically completely acceptable. It accounts for the difference between the two graphs you show. No fraud, no swindle, just science.

Pierre

I don't care how they try to save themselves but i am very happy the whole scam is starting to fall apart. We'll probably never know who was behind this and where all our money went but it's better to have a small victory than none at all. Tomorrow our politicians who are not open for debate but see climate change as their new relligion are going to spend 30 billion euros of our tax money, money we've worked hard for, most politicians arn't even open for debate while scientists are. We are paying to be mobile these days while developing countries like china don't do anything at all.

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