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I'm not wading in where angels fear to tread because I take issue with what you have said, but I do wish to highlight something.

I quote: "The Rev Margaret Mayman for example cannot deliver a lecture on Christ's message about marriage unless she chooses to be either a hypocrite or dishonest about the scriptures."

In that case, why would a Catholic priest have any authority to deliver a sermon on marriage?


Belt, you make a fair point. I would struggle to gain anything from a Catholic priest’s sermon about marriage. There are a range of attitudes towards marriage displayed across various Christian religious denominations. In respect of the Catholic church’s requirement for celibacy, I have heard it suggested that this is to ensure that there are no offspring who may have claims on inheritance thereby assuring the church becomes the beneficiary of any wealth. I'm sure this would be denied. What I am sure of, and Ian has noted, is that churches with liberal and/or existential interpretations of the message of Christ are emptying, while those based firmly on the Gospel are growing.


I don't agree that belt makes a fair point.

Celibacy is living life according to the scriptures as is living in Holy Matrimony as a man and wife.

Therefore it is not hypocrisy for a man who has chosen the path of celibacy to preach the virtues of Holy Matrimony according to the Gospel and the tenets of the church, because he is (hopefully) living by those tenets himself.

Paula Wagstaff

I agree with Andrei, one can be single and have a revelation of the relationship between Christ and His bride (the church) those that are called out, set apart and living a life accordingly.
If one isin't called to this, they should'nt go there. And if called, they are able to live it, understand it, and preach it, with revelation as Paul did.


I think that we are able to
understand something of marriage, or indeed many other things, without necessarily being a direct participant or in this example, married . Christian marriage (as opposed to civil unions & the like), is supposed to be a covenant between a man and a woman fashioned after God's covenant (promises) with his people. Sadly, the high rate of divorce tells us that most people, even within the church, don't understand the binding & sacred nature of a covenant.

I hold no particular brief for the Catholic Church but I see no reason why a priest who is well grounded in his theology, wouldn't be able to offer wisdom about marriage. After all, he has the best advice available to him through the word.

I imagine priests are able to make their wills in any manner that they choose like the rest of us. Is there some rule about this when one becomes a priest?

I fully support the Presbyterian General Assembly in reaching the decision they did, it is simply a matter of having to live in accordance with God's standards as laid down for us in the word, if we wish to have leadership positions.Everyone is welcome to attend church and participate in assisting here or there. If you wish to be a leader there are requirements in the same way as if you wish to be a Doctor there are requirements. The church has no need to apologise for upholding God's directions to his people.


the fact that what, 35% supported gay ministry shows that they're doing a rather pathetic job at educating their congregation about God's Laws. then again i have no right to judge considering i don't do much myself to educate others either


Whether or not you think you are doing a good job of educating others Stan, you still have the right to an opinion and you raise a good point. It is a concern that 35% of voters agree with homosexual/de factos being in leadership positions. Is it because the church feels that it is losing numbers that it wants 'bums on seats' at any price so is willing to compromise God's laws? I would like to see a post explaining why the 35% hold this opinion, what is the basis for it? Anyone?


Could it possibly be that the Word of God is so far from being rightly divided and preached, that we have become 'carnally minded' and even possibly want our ears tickled according to the idols in our hearts.
e.g. covetousness (prosperity gospel) etc etc. Remember it says until we remove those idles in our hearts, we cannot even see God, as the
kindgom is within.


Paula - this story might interest you


Thank you Andrei. Yes

John Boy

The Bible is ultimate tough love story really and I don't see how a Christian Church can argue with what it says about gays. Well done the PCANZ - back from the abyss.


Jesus said that "we are all equal in the eyes of God". He saw that mans' interpretation of the "Torah" were aimed at keeping "man" in charge and that the exclusion of those "not acceptable" was wrong. He demonstrated "The Way" but His message was twisted by the early Church to continue "Mans," dominate position and to eventually elimiant all who did not see "the message" the way they redesigned it.
Man has, over the centuries
viewed his spirituality from his knowledge around him and his ability to reason.
It is time to "rethink" our view of our spirituality in light of our advanced knowledge and ability to reason from our developed knowledge of our world, the solar system and the need for action to keep it in a healthy equilibrium.
Pride,power,greed,the I,mine,me attitude; and if you don't do it my way attitude, must be seen as leading us to distruction.
Man has been given the power to reason and makedecisions.. it is time to make these to the betterment of ALL mankind not just your chosen few.


Or....Gods chosen few.

The path is narrow, and few find it.
MANY are called but FEW are chosen.

I don't know of a scripture that says we are all equal
in Gods eyes.


Do not be "blinded" by the "sins of scripture" that lead to fundamentalism.
For every quotation there is an equal and opposite one to be considered.
If you believe in the "creation theory" then God is in each and everyone of mankind. it is the decisions we, each and everyone of us make, that count towards developing a world situation that we would all desire.
The Old Testament is the recored stories of the Jewish "Epic" over thousands of years prior to the birth of Jesus.. The New Testament is the writings of those who followed some years after
the death of Jesus and attempt to record the "oral" history of happenings during and events following his death.
These are not "Text" books to follow..
The way Jesus lived his life, treated all people, the examples of His parables, etc. [during His ministry called "The Way"] is what gives you peace and acceptance with your understanding of who and what God is.
There are many paths to the top of the mountain and it is pride and arrogance to think that we, individually have the one and only "true way".


hi gwm! i'd like to be behind you in-line (and listening in!) when you explain your rather humanistic philosophy to our Creator

ian is a Maze...and there is only one path to spiritual truth.

I'll tell you why, then you can pick me apart.

If indeed there are many paths to the top of the mountain, as you suggest, that would indicate all religions are "True" in the ultimate sense.

Islam's god urges his followers to "slay the infidel where you find them" - not as an Old Testament instruction specific to a particular battle, but as the final revealed word of Allah to all mankind. If I accept Islam is a valid path to the top of the mountain, then I accept murder in the name of religion as well.

True Buddhists say there is no god at all, that life is merely an illusion. If their path be true, then the claim itself is an illusion and self-cancelling.

Wiccans believe in earth sprites and all kinds of wee creatures, but not in God the creator, making their own claims inconsistent with the theism of Christianity, Judaism and Islam.

Christianity rests its case on prophecies foretelling of a Messiah who would come to earth, be pierced for our transgressions, be born in Bethlehem and appear in a certain year.

Having fulfilled those prophecies, Christ then proceeded to demonstrate a series of miracles unlike any ever seen before in defence of his claim that he and God were one.

I note you suggest these stories were written well after Christ's fact the vast majority of recognised NT scholars now accept that the Gospels were largely complete and distributed prior to the fall of Jerusalem in AD70, and that some of Paul's letters with their high Christology were first written within ten years of Christ's crucifixion.

Drinking a bottle of ammonia will kill you. No amount of PC "tolerance" will change that reality. Likewise, failing to test the competing claims of world religions will equally kill you, just in a more long-term fashion

Dell 52

It's great to be able to enjoy respectful debate. Thanks to all who have posted, I'm enjoying reading differing views. There is an article on the Presy decision in today's Herald that may be of academic interest although, personally, I found it somewhat extreme.It would be good if we had some NT quotes about leadership requirements. Anyone care to give it a go?


Here is one. 1 Timothy 3:1
This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desires a good thing.
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach.
Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre, but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
One that rules his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity.....FOR, if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God.
Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride, he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

The rest can be read on-line.


Andrew.. I will not be in that line.. I hope to have satisfied "my" creator before I "fall off the perch" that my life has been worthy. "This is my life" I do not seek higher honours !!
Andrew.. Spirituality has been defined by civilizations down through the ages.. it has evolved with our understanding of our lives and the world [and universe] around us.
Other religions are seeking to define and understand their understanding of gor just as we are.
Your choice of the quotation from Islam is just one of the many thatrefer to such activity in the three major "paths" following the teachings from "The Book".
I am not proud, and I am sure you are not, of the history of Christianity over the past 2000 years.. persecutions, murder, wars,etc., etc., in the name of our Faith.
The Old Testiment records several instances where the Jewish people redefined their Faith.. Jesus did it.. the Refermation period tried to do it.. perhaps we need to do it again now if we are to develop a world that is still inhabitable for future generations.. it may be too late to ask your God by the time you are pleading at the Pearly Gates.
Dell 52.. Jesus was the ultimate example of "Leadership" I have used His example on many occasions in management studies. However I believe that the early Christain Church suffered from lack of positive leadership resulting in the return to "male" dominance, exclusions, and a trail of disasters that are still being repeated today.
If the early Christains had followed Jesus as He lived his life then we may have had a vastly different last 2000 years !!


Yes gwm Jesus was the ultimate leader.
Especially when He said.
'Follow Me' I am the Way the Truth and the Life.
NO MAN comes to the Father ....but by ME.

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