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Comments

peter

This fellow was not a Catholic priest either:

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/latest/200704161730/salvation_army_officer_in_court_on_sex_charges

peter

Not a priest, but in Catholic Church activities>

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/16/nyregion/16church.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

peter

Not a priest, but in Catholic Church activities>

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/16/nyregion/16church.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

fugley

What desperation shown by the god botherers. The fact that sex crimes are committed by people who are not catholic priests does not absolve the catholic priests who have committed such crimes, nor does it absolve the Church who covered up those crimes.

fugley

What desperation shown by the god botherers. The fact that sex crimes are committed by people who are not catholic priests does not absolve the catholic priests who have committed such crimes, nor does it absolve the Church who covered up those crimes.

towaka

Fugley,
The reason it is such a problem in the Catholic Church is due to their idiotic teaching about celibacy of priests.

It is just common sense that if you suppress one`s sexuality that it well come out in an untoward manner.

Also the Catholic Church has always had a attraction for homosexuals and pedophiles as they could remain unmarried and there would be no social stigma attached.

The strange thing is that the Catholic`s teaching on celibacy flies in the face of Biblical teaching i.e. Paul in 1 Tim.4.3 describing forbidding to marry as the ''doctrines of demons''.

Now the context of the passage is interesting as it refers to a great apostasy in the latter days.

Lucyna

Towaka, the Catholic Priest molestation rate of children is much less than Protestant clergy who have far less restrictions on celibacy, and even less than school-teachers who have no celibacy requirements.

It is just common sense that if you suppress one`s sexuality that it well come out in an untoward manner.

That is the animalistic view of humanity. We have no control over our bodily urges, so we ought to just give up and have sex with whoever we want so as not to repress ourselves. Is that really your position?

peter

Lucyana

According to this article, somewhere around $1.5 billion US has been paid out on settlements of these cases since 1950.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/11/AR2007041100336.html?hpid=sec-religion

Would the Roman Catholic Church be better off to make those charged responsible for their own defence and whatever outcomes then follow?

The need for bankrupt dioceses and selling off assets seems an unusual response.

towaka

Lucyna,
You did not answer the doctrinal issues in my post.

Also what are you basing your claims on in regards to a higher offending amongst protestants?

As for my ''animalistic view of humanity'',It seems St Paul had a similar view to me when he said ''It is better to marry than burn''.

Fletch

towaka, St Paul said -

Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

In other words, if you're burning with passion (lust?) it is better to marry, but he says would that everyone were like him and able to be single.

When I was a kid, our family lived next door to a Presbyterian Minister who was married; he confided to my mother that if he had to do it all again then he wouldn't get married. He said it was too much dividing your loyalties.

Fletch

I think one of the main points in the story, and one that Lucyna is trying to make, is that society as a whole has gone downhill in respect of morals.
That is THE WHOLE OF SOCIETY.

It would be nice to think that the Church is immune to what is going on in the rest of the world. I am sure they try to be, but I have a surprise for you - everyone in the Church is not perfect or sinless. God's Church is perfect (as God is), but the people in it are merely human and they/we fall and sin.

Do you expect everyone in the Church to be perfect and sinless? Is that what you are criticizing us for? Not being perfect? You said in another post that the Pope isn't sinless (and you're right, he isn't).

I am not trying to make excuses for the Church - as a Catholic it saddens and disturbs me, but I am glad to see that they are trying to do the right thing.

By the way, I have heard someone say before that a certain group who has had much influence in society down through the years, and who hate the Church, sent many men into the seminary to become priests to destroy the Church from the inside-out.

I have no proof of this, but it sounds like something someone would/could do if they hated Christianity enough.

peter

Fletch

$US1.5 billion in settlements from Roman Catholic Church in the US suggests that something is amiss here.

The criticism has not mainly been in behaviour of those charged. It has been of bishops, archbishops and cardinals who have allegedly "covered up" for guys with real problems.

Which brings me to the question I raised before. Why did these more senior believers cover up activities that need to be heard before a court of law?

If such a high number of clergy cannot follow their own advice as to how we should live our lives, the question that arises is this. Should we take any notice of them?

Fletch

Peter, I think we're talking mainly about incidents that happened from the 1960s and 1980s. I think that Bishops and other clergy were shocked when informed of these goings on and reacted humanly by pulling out the offending clergy and placing them somewhere else.
They thought this would fix the problem: it didn't.

When you're talking about a "huge number of clergy" -
Statistics say it is 4% over between 1950 and 2002, with 75% of the abuse occurring between 1960 and 1984.
Yes it is bad, but what about all the good that they do? What about those who have given their lives in the service of the church and Priests like Maximillion Colby who gave his life as a martyr so that others can live? What about the catholic orphanages and other organizations that help the poor and needy?

Again, I'm not trying to make excuses, but they're not all bad.

Again though, priests are human, like Judas -

One who had followed the Lord-who had seen him walk on water and raise people from the dead and forgive sinners, one whose feet the Lord had washed-betrayed him. The gospels tells us that Judas allowed Satan to enter into him and then sold the Lord for thirty pieces of silver

Jesus didn't choose Judas to betray him. But Judas was always free, and he used his freedom to allow Satan to enter into him, and by his betrayal Jesus was crucified and executed. But God foresaw this evil and used to accomplish the ultimate good: the redemption of the world.

The point is, sometimes God's chosen ones betray him. That is a fact that we have to confront. If the early Christians had focused only on the scandal caused by Judas, the Church would have been finished before it even started to grow. Instead they recognized that you don't judge a movement by those who don't live it but by those who do. Rather than focusing on the betrayer, they focused on the other eleven on account of whose work, preaching, miracles, and love for Christ we are here today. It is on account of the other eleven-all of whom except John were martyred for Christ and for the gospel they proclaimed-that we ever heard the saving word of God, that we ever received the sacraments of eternal life.

The Church, despite these sorts of people, will never fail, because Jesus says it won't - that "the gates of hell will not prevail against it".

peter

And what percentage were covering up for them I wonder. And how many not reported?

All I can say is the 4 per cent has cost them a huge bundle. What evidence is there that this has reduced, other than the reduction in number of priests themselves!

towaka

Fletch,
Paul`s attitude to marriage was always for it to be a personal choice for each individual.And if you have strong sexual desires then get married.Other wise as I posted earlier it will come out in an untoward manner.

Which reminds me of the old joke about Rome...for the city with the most celibates,it has the most prostitutes!

Also you can not get a more clear command from Paul against forbidding of marriage than calling it ''doctrine of devils''.

Just think about where having a celibate priesthood comes from?The practice has pagan/eastern origins,just think of Buddhist monks and Hindu holy men.Which is miles away from the Jewish tradition where true Christianity hails from.

Still waiting for what you based your claims about Protestant offending on Lucyna.Can not remember COE shelling out billions lately!

Fletch

towaka, check this for some answers to your question..

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0104sbs.asp


peter

It says that it is not "marriage is bad, but precisely because its goodness makes its renunciation a valuable and generous gift to offer to God. After all, the goodness of a gift determines the value of the sacrifice."

Weird!

What you give up you don't get. Lonely crusty men, middle-aged before their years.

If you were to give up all that is good in life, you would only be left with the bad. A lesson not learned.

Lucyna

Towaka,

If you want doctrinal questions answered, I recommend CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, looking up the Catholic Encyclopaedia or asking someone like Jimmy Akin.

There is a certain pointlessness to discussing doctrine with you (I get the impression that if we were talking, you'd you'd have your fingers in your ears the whole time), so if you are really interested as to the why Catholics do things particular ways, knock yourself out.

As to my contention that abuse is higher in Protestant denominations:

A Penn State historian, Philip Jenkins, has done an in depth research of paedophilia and sexual abuse among the clergy and has come up with some rather eye opening facts. It seems that while 1.7 percent of Catholic clergy have been guilty of paedophilia (or sexual abuse particularly of boys), a whopping TEN percent of Protestant ministers have been found guilty of paedophilia!

...

Jenkins theorizes that the media, proving the 'point' of the 'necessity' of sexual promiscuity, over-emphasizes any instance of paedophilia found among the Catholic clergy since it can use this to criticize the entire idea of celibacy. But it is interesting that the NON-Celibate Protestant ministers have a MUCH GREATER problem with it than the celibate Catholic priests!

Philip Jenkins has written a book, called Pedophiles and Priests. Here's a review, and a the book on Amazon.

Lucyna

oops. Here's an end italic

Lucyna

I give up.

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