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"In some earlier school shootings...teachers and students carrying concealed guns have shot dead attackers on campus before more than a couple of people were killed."

Can you provide chapter and verse for this claim?


Virginia Tech Shootings
It's going to be hard for America's mainstream media to report on something so real and tangible, since they've only had some dying cowboy saying politically-incorrect phrases on a dying media and a dead ex-playboy girl to talk about for the past month. Oh, and that limited skirmish in the middle east ... but that largely goes ignored. I guess I'm sounding unsympathetic? It wouldn't happen anywhere else though would it? A country that is consistently at war, where everyone is most comfortable with firearms. Go figure!! America needs to calm the #@!* down.


And that's the best you can come up with, Ian? Two references out of how many school shootings?

How many innocent people have lost their lives becuase of vigilante action?

ian miss the obvious. Those states with the most restrictions on gun ownership suffer higher criminal use of guns, including school massacres.

Those with conceal-carry laws generally have the lowest crime rates.

You are never going to prevent a nutbag from getting hold of a gun the evidence in tight gun control states shows...but if a large proportion of other citizens are armed the response is usually swift and effective.

The reasons there aren't many (and there's another where the principal shot dead the gunman) of the kind I cited is because usually these incidents don't happen in those states..people don't even bother trying their luck.

Lots of massacres in leftie liberal jurisdictions though...why would that be?

The fact that a previous rampage in Virginia was stopped, whereas this one at a "no guns" policy university wasn't, should send a signal: gun control is a patsy idea that doesn't work and actually has a negative effect on crime rates (see Britain as an example)

John Boy

I recently carried out a scientific experiment to establish the deterrent effect of guns. It proved that a gun on site deters pests.

The wild rabbit taunting me on my slice of paradise nearly every day suddenly became darn near invisible when the air gun came home.

Even the dumb will learn when the stakes are high enough.


By my reading of your other posts, Ian, I believe you see NZ as a "leftie liberal jurisdiction", so why don't we have these school and workplace massacres on the scale of US? And, since you brought up the UK, why don't they have them there, on the same scale as the US?

I think ther real lesson from this latest massacre is not that it would have been ameliorated by an armed student body, but that the police response was sadly lacking.

You may be happy to live in a world populated by armed vigilante Bubbas, but i prefer an NZ with a reasonable tolerance of fire arms for recreation, an generally unarmed police force and a lack of massacres.


why don't we have these school and workplace massacres on the scale of US?

Population of the USA = 300,000,000

Population of NZ = 4,000,000

Might be a clue in there Fugley

ian about debating the facts at previous cases where people were armed...gunmen were shot before more lives were lost.

NZ has had Aramoana, Masterton, Paerata, Raurimu and an attempt on the Hauraki Plains in recent history... despite having 1/100th the population of the US.

Not bad for a liberal leftie state at the bottom of the world


Ian, I AM debating the facts at hand, and when questioned you could only provide TWO examples to support your specious argument.

How many massacres has the US had?

And how many innocent lives have been lost when Bubba decides to be a vigilante.

This tragedy is not about ease of access to guns; it is about dealing with mentally deranged people who have easy access to guns and about the apparent failure (in this case) of the police to act promptly and efficiently.

Ian, how many gun deaths are there, in total, each year in the USofA, the UK, Australia and NZ?


This might interest you Fugley

Friend saw boy before he was shot

And UK gun laws are a lot tighter than NZs.

Pascal's bookie


I have been brought up with guns, trained in their use, made my living using them as tools.

They have one real purpose, killing. I have no problem with that, provided that it is killing animals or as used by the armed forces.

Pistols and revolvers have only one use and that is against people in offense or defense. The USA has a situation where the overwhelming majority carry or own them for defense. The cat is well and truly out of the bag there and will not go back in no matter what wistfull and useless law will try to proscribe. In a world full of drugs and conscienceless crime it is the only thing that stands between death as a helpless victim and life. I dont like pistols, but I would sure buy one and steel myself to use it if I lived in that environment.


With all due respect Ian, I do prefer NZ being at the BOTTOM of this list not the top.

You'll also find the USA has much higher accidental death rates than NZ, despite us having more guns than them on a population basis.


Here's is a perfect example of what can go wrong with firearms. And remember, these aren't Bubba and BillyBob types, these are trained men:

"Two Secret Service officers were injured after a gun held by another Secret Service officer accidentally fired inside the White House gate, according to a spokesman, Darrin Blackford.

"Their injuries are non-life threatening, the spokesman said.

"One officer suffered a shrapnel wound to the face, and the other was wounded in the leg.

"They were taken to George Washington Hospital."


Yeah right.

UK gun laws are tighter than ours, but!

Where's the police raids in the UK on the Afghani & Somali refugee rival criminal gangs (there's a turf war between them) and their openly displaying and selling the likes of AK47s and other high powered semi- automatic/automatic weapons on the streets of London in broad daylight in car boot sales?

The UK cops are plainly too scared to stop it happening!!


That's an issue for the UK, not me. Why not just stick to the topic at hand, instead of dragging in irrelevant extraneous information?


While all the 'do-gooders' are whining it up here about gun control and firearms ... they are missing the essential Truth.

The little lad at VTech was off his face on anti-depressants.
Guns don't kill people ... prescriptions do.

John Boy

C'mon F. Accidents happen and the US Secret Service isn't that flash.

I don't own a real gun (they are cool though) but can see its apparent that:

lunies can get them

the bad guys have got them

banning them doesn't stop crime involving them

crime stats involving them seem worse after banning

the cops can't/won't protect you

even half sane people will be careful if there's the possibility there's a bullet at the end of a violent act

the Swiss are armed to the teeth with serious stuff yet quite sensible about it and don't have shootouts

I think I am obliged to protect myself and my family. The bat will have to do for now but who's to say that will be enough one day? I have talked my way out of trouble so far but death threats are sobering things.

I guess Helen goes about with her security detail and insists they only take their handbags and umbrellas to ward off disgruntled voters. When she takes the risks on the ample chin maybe I will as well.

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