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Comments

Paulinem

Andrei you really are a very very strange one -he is quite right ...its a pity they didn't think of this when we all told them back in 2002 ..don't go in to Iraq its wrong its immoral and for you to invade a sovereign country like Iraq you are no better than Adolf Hitler.

Now 700,000 plus deaths later ..etc ...etc.

Finally questions are been raised as to the righteous of the been there a bit late!! I am sure the relatives of the dead and maimed will be thinking 5 yrs to late.

Andrei for you to in anyway support this apostasy of an invasion you are NO Christian..for these invaders broke the 1st 5th and Seventh ninth commandment As the Popes envoy told Bush in 2002 on the eve of the invasion go into Iraq you go with out God ..if they didn't go with God will. then obviously they went with Satan's will.

I know whose will I would prefer to follow for God will not be mocked

andrei

Pauline;


  • 700,000 deaths later?

    Do really believe that people were not being killed and dying in Iraq before 2003?

    Have you not seen the mass graves of Hilla? Have you no knowledge of the crimes against humanity perpertrated by Saddam Hussein?

    Obviously not.

  • you are NO Christian

    A Christian is a member of the Church Militant, the church established by Christ on this earth. Who is or is not a member (as opposed to a member of a denomination or congregation nominally or otherwise) is not for you or I to say. Christ knows his own.

    The sheep will be separated from the goats on the day of judgement when Christ comes as Judge, not by you or me. Let us hope and pray that we are both amongst the sheep and work towards that.

  • Your reference to the ten commandments is slightly confusing since you use the Catholic numbering rather than the Orthodox, Jewish or protestant.

    I'll say no more on this but check the differences yourself and see how it comes out. My suggestion would be to quote the text of the commandments rather than refering to them by number to avoid such confusion in the future.

  • I agree that war for Christians is problematical however even Christ himself resorted violence when he cleansed the temple and many of the Christian Saints were soldiers and warriors.

    For example Saint George was a soldier, martyred under Diocletian.

Pauline we live in a fallen world and we all have to do our best to follow Gods will (and we all fall short) but I don't believe that means we should ignore evil and allow it to proceed unchecked. How we do this is up to individual conscience.

Anyway the point of this post is whatever the merits or otherwise of using military action against Saddam Hussein we long ago committed to the former.

And once war begins you must fight to win. Any sign of ambivalance towards this end goal(as shown by General Rose in his statements) will only extend the war and increase the bloodshed and suffering.

And if you think that withdrawal of western troops from this conflict will end it and the suffering of the Iraqi people you are incredibly naive.


John Boy

This war isn't the nice tidy war that people like Montgomery and Patton directed. They would have avoided house to house fighting if possible and never had to deal with ideology like this. They won by having a bit of luck, more guns and reliable supply lines.

Western values have little place where suicide bombers in civilian garb will happily blow innocents to bits (the west likes to do that from a distance with aeroplanes).

To win here (and a win may only supress the problem for a while - but the Yanks would get the oil) will require a brutality that most of us should be very uncomfortable with. This is not a high tech war and that is to our disadvantage.

Flitting around blowing up stuff from a distance is all very nice but here we have to be on the ground and then it gets personal. I think they simply don't have the stomach for dealing with this. I'm not going to blame them for that because I don't think I could do it either. That doesn't mean I would take that line if it was my home being threatened but the motivation would be different. It has to be worth fighting for and, sadly, this may not be if no positive long term outcomes are apparent.

If the oppourtunity had been taken after Kuwait things may have been different. Remind me why they called for an uprising and then abandoned those that did to certain death. If there was the time to do this it seeems it was then.

Maybe this is simply part of a bigger picture as two sides square off for a show down. The secular humanists are the spectators but don't realise the spectators are part of the game. It will be interesting when the lions get into the stands.

Paulinem

In short over 700000 dead of Iraqis and yes their lives are very important ..there is much evidence this is a true figure.

Saddam ...well what is he relay responsible for ..the jury is out with confusing reports depends on who gives the information ..Saddam was the people of Iraq's problem NO ONE ELSE PROBLEM.

Who was responsible for putting Saddam in power who used there weaponry to stop apposition from throwing him out after the 1991 was .. Answer US and GB

Who was responsible for leaving depleted Uranium in Iraq that caused unknown cancer deaths ...and with a no fly zone they implemented stop any clean up of the uranium ,,Answer US and GB

UN figures 500,000 children alone died during this time and with the sanctions in which medicine was not allowed to be imported ... Children were given aspirin for pain relief

Reporter to Madam Al bright Us secretary of state when told about this apostasy which US was responsible for

Answer WE CAN LIVE WITH
THE COLLATERAL DAMAGE ... THE RPICE IS WORTH IT

Would the answer been the same if 500000 US children had died this way ???

Who provided Saddam with Gas for Iran and the Kurds >>answer US

1st comm - I am the Lord thy God thy shall have NO FALSE GOD before me -careful Andrei he will not be mocked !!!!!!

5TH thy Thy shall NOT KILL!!!

7Th Thy shall not STEAL -yes this means Iraq's OIL

9th THY shall not covert thy neighbour's Goods ..like Iraq's oil

Got to go now will reply alter in full

John Boy

Its OK Andrei, you can come out now. She's gone, for the moment at least.

Psycho Milt

"Great Men like Montgomery or Patton who forged on despite the occaisional setbacks and who made sure that the Nazis didn't triumph. And despite the Islamists being the intellectual heirs of the Nazis as an enemy they have far less in men material and weapons to throw at the west than their German predecessors."

Montgomery's and Patton's campaigns in Europe were to free countries subject to a foreign occupation. Don't you find something ironic in comparing that to the Coalition occupation of Iraq?

Lloyd

Still fighting WW3 Andrei. As always blinded by your own prejudice and ignorance. A common factor of this debate has been that the war's supporters are often those with the least acquaintance with war itself and an understanding of the complexities of the Middle East. It takes an astounding amount of ignorance and sheer inability to learn from experience and empirical facts to still be trotting out this hogwash 4 years down the track.

andrei

Montgomery's and Patton's campaigns in Europe were to free countries subject to a foreign occupation.
That's funny Milt.

I always understood these two gentlemen began their European campaign in Sicily which is and was part of Italy a sovereign nation ruled at the time by the Italian government.

I suppose at a stretch you could argue Pattons invasion of Morocco was to free it from an foreign invader, the French

andrei

Paulinem

I hate to disallussion you but Saddam came to power not as a result of American intervention but as a result of a coup he initiated.

Furthermore Iraq was always Soviet ally not an American one.

And if you look at his armoury you will see that his the principle supplier of his weaponary was the Soviet Union. The second largest supplier was France.

As for his chemical weapons they were locally produced - and herein lies the rub - the raw materials for creating them are precursors for legitimate products, agricultural chemicals and pesticides primarily.

So if such chemicals are embargoed by the US, which they were, then the lefty whine goes up that Iraq cannot deal with malaria in southern Iraq (for example)because of cruel embargoes while if they are supplied and used for nefarious purposes the bitching about the evil west supplying chemicals to manufacture chemical weapons for profit gets called.

One document found by the ISG and studiously ignored was the plan for converting a factory used to produce legitimate agricultural chemicals into a factory for producing Chemical warfare agents.

The whole process if followed would see the conversion accomplished in three days.

John Boy

Give it up Andrei. The WW2 invasions by the Allies tended to free countries from unpopular or foreign rulers. Locals tended to welcome the Western Allies as liberators who did what they had to and then largely left. The Russians came and stayed. Who was more popular?

The seeds of this shambles were sown a lot time ago and I really think that the locals will eventually have to sort this out themselves.

Although its tacky to say so I still think you need to follow the money here. Who owns the oil rights now? Where did the money from the oil for food program go?

Psycho Milt

Forgive me - I didn't realise you intended "Nazis" as a generic term including Italy and Vichy France. I agree that our sterling attempts to keep North Africa British and French aren't stellar highlights of the struggle for freedom. Perhaps you're right and Monty and Patton are more appropriate than I thought.

You must be aware though, that the Muslim world doesn't look at Iraq and see the West defending itself against men, material and weapons thrown at it by "Islamists" - quite the reverse in fact, and with fairly compelling evidence in my view.

s

"Great Men like Montgomery or Patton who forged on despite the occaisional setbacks and who made sure that the Nazis didn't triumph."

Montgomery and Patton, like Rommel and Zhukov were fighting a war with a clearly identified enemy, in uniform with 'traditional' set piece battles. They were not fighting plain clothes terrorists with semtex strapped to them. A better analogy would be south african efforts against the ANC etc..Or maybe you are confusing your history again...perhaps Patton and Mongomery were actually fighting against the Germans in 1914...you know... along the Maginot line hmmm?

Paulinem

Andrei please present proof of your accusation re USSR part in Iraq ... You cannot !!! Because it it lies ...the US meddling in Iraq and Iran is well known an considered a historic fact.

Stop making up fairy stories that are totally stretching in the truth - it shows you are so stifled with prejudice you refuse to see the reality.

In reality you Andrei are showing you have NO respect for the value of human life unless they come from area that is deemed worthy and important ...

You are doing Satan's work for him!!!

In Gods eyes ALL life is worthy to live in peace and harmony in ALL nations from conception to death

Only Satan wants death and destruction which your friends are responsible for

PS putting labels on people like lefty shows you have lost the argument and are attaching the messenger.:)

towaka

Paulinem,
Andrei has already furnished the proof. Saddam`s regime was armed with Soviet weapons not American.

Paulinem

With out going for hours and hours through he various pages of the Stockholm report to find this questionable fact that Andrei says ..it is a well known fact the CIA put Saddam in power as they put Chile's Allende in power (another dictator).

It is a matter of fact US and GB etc etc ...encouraged as much as they could there friend Saddam to declare war on Iran. They say the airports in Iraq were flat out as plane after plane landed with weaponry and yes with it poisonous gas from US and friends to Saddam to fight the war in Iran.

By the way Andrei it is well known Iran was supplied by USSR in weaponry and yes Gas as well I suggest you are getting deliberately confused in your facts you supplied.

So lets face it the Iran /Iraq war was in reality a conflict between the worlds bully-boys using minor countries to assure their own agenda

Andrei stop living in la la world your greedy friends in US has scarred their country for generations over Iraq as much as the the Nazis scarred theirs in Germany.

US subsequent behaviour in torture and human rights etc puts a total lie to its fighting for freedom BULLSHIT.

Saddam as I said was Iraqis people problem -NO ONE ELSES

I feel very much for my US friends who hate with a passion Bush/Chaney's and co evil satanic work...it is from them I get my information as under there corrupt non democratic US election system they are virtual paralyzed to see change happen.

Well all we can do is point out in NZ we also use to have a very similar corrupt election system ...with the same form of minority govt rilling by dictatorships of our cabinet called FPP election system

It was thanks to people like myself who pounded the NZ streets in the fair vote campaign in the 1980s which lead to a change to this in 1991 with MMP. now we need to get out again and make another change to STV election system and with it the binding CIR in legislation.

Paulinem


Andrei said

And if you think that withdrawal of western troops from this conflict will end it and the suffering of the Iraqi people you are incredibly naive.

Iraqi Lawmakers Demand U.S. Withdrawal

By United Press International

Some 133 Iraqi lawmakers from different political blocs, calling themselves the "free deputies," signed a document demanding a scheduled withdrawal of the U.S.-led multinational troops from their country, according to the Sadrist bloc in Parliament.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17644.htm

There is only one message to US and friends from this ....GET OUT the Iraq people do not want you there.

Obvious Andrei closed his eyes to the large protest marches in Iraq demanding
US etc gets out.

But yes I do appreciate Chaney and co intentions to put a US military bases in Iraq and control of Iraq oil would be destroyed ...and of course Iraq could also decide to trade in Euro Petrol dollars as Iran has decided to do

..och that will really cause a problem to the US economy ...especially if Saudi and USSR also decides on this form of payment of exchange for oil. European countries will be smiling though as there economy booms and as US economy gets destroyed.

Psycho Milt

Pedant alert - while the CIA was certainly responsible for a dictator gaining power in Chile, the dictator's name was Pinochet. Allende was the poor democratically-elected sap who got overthrown.

The Shrub

......let alone what the American people now clearly want.

http://electioncentral.tpmcafe.com/blog/electioncentral/2007/may/05/wapo_cherry_picks_from_its_own_poll_to_argue_that_publics_turning_on_dems

The contempt you show for the average American Andrei (useful idiots) far surpasses anything us on the left dish out.


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aeYCqFZ6m21g&refer=home

paul Litterick

it is amusing to see an armchair general condemning a real one as a "desk general." Sir Michael fought in the Falklands; he commanded 22 SAS. Whilst little boys with blogs can talk about war and leadership, real generals are seeing the British Army disintegrate because of an unwinnable war.

andrei

Hi Paul;

Long time no see.

I'll admit the the "Desk General" comment to being a cheap shot.

Nevertheless there is a war to be won, losing it is not an option.

And as for the British military distintigrating well that may have something to do with political correctness and retired Generals coming out in public declaring are defeat.

Gee if you're a squaddy in Iraq that must make you feel really motivated.

As for the war being unwinnable - I know this is beyond your comprehension but this war has been going on for more than 1500 years.

Don't expect to see a final resolution anytime soon.

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