The Waste Land

What   might be the  greatest cultural treasure of our civilization?

Any thoughts?

It should only take about a nano second to arrive at an answer.

Is there anybody prepared to argue that it isn't the Holy Bible?

Can anybody name any work of literature, art or architecture that has inspired so many people for so long?

Or given rise to so many other great works. Many of the masterpieces that hang in galleries around the world, the great churches of Europe and Asia minor,   poetry and literature have all drawn inspiration this book.

But of course all of that is trivial compared to the real treasure contained within its pages or the influence it has had in making us who we are today.

But some people are far too clever to realize that.

Comments

[fugley]

I guess you've rather proved his point with this post, haven't you?

[fugley]

Well, it is just a synthesis of a number of books that came before it.

You fail to pay tribute to the earlier myths and legends that inspired the various authors of the bible, don't you? You are aware, surely, of the precursors to the bible stories?

Yes, there is much in our cultural heritage drawn from the bible, such as the destruction of knowledge deemed evil by the early church, the destruction of people who opposed the various war lord popes (cathars, anyone?), right up to modern day attempts to put brakes on Man's relentless quest for knowledge.

[peter]

A few favourites

Music: Bach, Mozart, Haydn ..

Plays: Shakespeare

Art: Picasso

Yes these composers did write masses but musically they are indistinguishable from their other works; i.e. they are typical.

The Bible is the most owned book, but it is also the most unread.

[fugley]

Of course, there is wisdom in the bible, as in 1 Corninthians 13:11

Yes, I once had an imaginary friend, but when I became a Man I no longer had the need for imaginary friends. Paul's letter to the Corinthians inspired me to put such childish notions behind me.

[robk]

True to a point, but I know lots of people who have read their bibles from cover to cover multiple times. (I tried it once, and got bogged down somewhere in Numbers I recall.)
I look around and wonder if we are indeed 'civilized', but will grant the benefit of the doubt...
At least part of the bible is written in most of the languages of the world... (In many eastern european countries and China, a bible is their most treasured possession, kept at great risk to their personal safety.) by contrast, Shakespeare has been translated into a few other languages, but I can't see why - much of it's effect comes from the Elizabethan (?) language used to write it.
I know many more teenagers into the bible than Bach, as well.
Why can't we get it right? Many people in the western world rubbish the book, others make the mistake of idolizing it, unintentionally ignoring the One it points to.
FWIW: My vote the bible.

[fugley]

then rob, you need to widen your reading horizons.

Abraham is referred to in how many religious works?

How many religions claim a miraculous conception for their god/leader/figurehead?

How many god/demigods have died and been resurrected?

Why does virtually every religion take far too much interest in sex? And why does religion cause so much sexual repression?

The One? Nah, get an education, there's thousands upon thousands of gods, and not one of them actually exists.

[robk]

fugley : "then rob, you need to widen your reading horizons."
You could be right, I don't read widely or study philosophy... But I have spent a lot of time considering the claims and general features of the main contenders, and Jesus stands head and shoulders (to put it mildly) above Tangaroa, Bhudda, Osiris and hundreds of others I have heard about.

"Abraham is referred to in how many religious works?"
I suppose I could do a Google and find out how many, but I don't really care...

"How many religions claim a miraculous conception for their god/leader/figurehead?"
I suppose I could do a Google and find out how many, but I don't really care... (Cut and paste is wonderful ;-)

"How many god/demigods have died and been resurrected?"
Ah! easy! Only ONE. EVER.

"Why does virtually every religion take far too much interest in sex? And why does religion cause so much sexual repression?"
I believe I can answer this. It seems God / Creator values FAMILIES above almost anything on earth. One thing that sets (true) Christianity apart is that we get to be in God's FAMILY when we accept the free offer (relinquishing only our own misplaced PRIDE in exchange!) The following list are things that undermine or even destroy FAMILIES:
Abortion - kills babies
Fornication - brings diseases and makes it hard to avoid adultery later
Adultery - A huge betrayal of a spouse, usually kills trust and love stone dead
Homosexual acts - can not start a family, destroys the people involved
Child abuse - obvious
Paedophilia - ditto
Pornography - like a drug, drags people into seeking more and more. Often leads to some or all of the above sins.
Alcohol and drug abuse - ruins relationships.

This list is a little abbreviated and simplistic - only for reasons of space - I would be happy to elaborate.
That's why God hates sexual sins, religious people often have overreactions to it out of frustration (of various kinds) that so many people ignore their warnings and go ahead and stuff up their own lives and their kid's as well.

"The One? Nah, get an education, there's thousands upon thousands of gods, and not one of them actually exists."
You are right, to a point. You could investigate the evidence for each and every one of them, or you could choose the most likely, (create a short list) and exhaustively investigate them. But until you have, you can not possibly know for sure none of them [gods] exist.
Unfortunately Christians, or people calling ourselves Christians have let you down badly by not demonstrating the love and compassion toward other people we should have.
My education does continue :-)

[peasant]

The Bible is education for the soul, a subject in a pitiable state of sorry neglect in contemporary 'enlightened' western thought. In "Escape from Reason" Schaeffer traces the decline of 'art' in western culture. Without the cult the culture loses its metaphysical moorings.

fugley's misreading of I Corinthians 13 is tragically, hideously twisted. Here is the actual passage:

For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face.

fugley, put away your childish petulance and make peace with your Creator.

"Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool."

[Andrew Davies]

ditto peasant and robk. Very well put.

As great as Mozart, Bach, Hayden et al are, they do not speak of, nor do they offer, eternal life. The Bible tells us of God's plan for eternity and how we can choose it.
Whether we choose it or reject it, the plan does not change.

[Andrew Davies]

BTW Fugley, God is not opposed to sex, after all He invented it. He also knows how powerful and potentially destructive it is which is why He gave us a blueprint for enjoying it safely.

[Fletch]

fugley, funny how the prophecies in the Old Testament, which is demonstratively far, far older than the New Testament, all came true to the letter in one man, Jesus Christ.

And no, before you say that the whole Bible was written at one time - it wasn't. Do some research and find out for yourself.

[fraser]

"He gave us a blueprint for enjoying it safely."

seems to be an awful lot of differing blueprints about.

[fugley]

Fletch, funny how no one at the time seemed to believe jesus was the fulfillment of the prophecies "to the letter".

Why did the jews reject him? Why do they still reject him?

Your fulfillment of prophecy is no better than those who claim nostradamus'predictions as true, well after the event.

[peter]

No Andrew .. Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Picasso, Shakespeare do not offer eternal life .. but any person can substantiate the inspiration and spiritual fulfilment that they are reputed to offer.

Your interpretation of the Bible is that it may offer eternal life "in real". But substantial international religious philosophers like our own valued Professor Lloyd Geering have helped us for decades to see this in a more realistic light.

As for the impact of the Bible .. here is a link that shows where strict religious upbringing can lead a child. For many it invokes scepticism. Under these circumstances, the child can remain with these supernatural beliefs for life (in the name of family unity). Or they can take more courageous decisions to develop their own spirtual dimension.

http://paranormalstories.blogspot.com/2007/06/aleister-crowley-part-i.html

In the above case, what a disaster. Exclusive Brethren to the Occult in a few easy moves!!!

[peasant]

fugley
Read Psalm 22, Isaiah 52 & 61, Zechariah 9:9, Micah 5:2 (just a few examples; there are hundreds)

also check this page:
www.contenderministries.org

[peasant]

there goes peter again, framing everything through his relativistic lens. Making self-contradictory claims about spirituality then quoting the infamous blasphemer Geering. Nice FUD about religious upbringing too. Truly a classic peter comment.

[Paula]

Peasant.

Enjoyed that web-site.
I went straight to the 'Apostacy' page.

I'm so happy to find someone in NZ who believes this, hoping, that is that you do believe that article also. I've been ranting on about this in NZ for over 5 years now, and just gave up and enjoyed fellowship with
Christians from America.

[Danyl]

The Veda's . . . ?

They're certainly older, probably more widely read and they actually - you know - make some sense.

[andrei]

Nice try Danyl but that bird aint going to fly.

There are probably more athiests in the world than Hindus.

And how many people do you know that have actually read the entire vedic texts?

And outside of the Indian sub continent where is the art, architecture or literature inspired by the vedas?

[Hamish]

It's. Just. A. Book.