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God made us in His image, and I think we are now trying to make God in our image


I think they just don't get it. The church never changes it's stance on what is right and wrong because God never changes His mind on what is right and wrong.

Christianity shouldn't mean ostracizing people because of the things they do that are against God's word - love the sinner but hate the sin. Accepting the sinner doesn't mean bending to change God's law so that all of a sudden what was wrong is now right because we don't want to offend anyone.

Sorry, but Jesus told the woman caught in adultery to "go and sin no more". He didn't say, "hey, that's OK, I was wrong to say adultery is wrong and we'll be changing that law in Heaven once I get up there"; ditto for homosexuals.

God made man and woman this way for a reason and if Priests or Pastors want to change it then they aren't true Christians anymore - worse, they're promoting what God hates, leading the flocks they are supposed to be shepherding away from God, and will have to answer before God at then End.


Yes Fletch,

That is what I would say is part of the great 'falling away from the faith' as mentioned in scripture.

I read today that God expects His Priests/Pastors
to teach His people the difference between the holy and the profane, but if Gods 'leaders' do not know the difference - then what can we expect of the world.

This is (I believe) why He is challenging the leaders to examine their teachings
and come back to what He said and what the Apostles taught.

The message that has started to be heard around the world is
calling for 'repentance'.
from such leaders and what they are teaching...
as judgement starts at the House of God.

John Boy

This is why we can't really complain about pictures like the "Turn the other cheek" one. A biggish chunk of the Church seems to support the things it represents. I guess they are no longer "Christian Churches" though having drifted too far away from the basics to be included. I see them as having crossed over to a cult. Maybe these priests will be included among those to whom God says, "I didn't know you" despite their doing things in His name.

Go the Africans.


All this religious social engineering to justify debauchery is not Christianity .

No wonder I detest religion and understand the Bible is the law of liberty .

Who in there right mind can respect or trust wayward religious nutbars .


It's those dodgy Anglicans again. We know about them already. LOL They ain't christians no more. LOL

"All people - including gay and lesbian Christians and non-Christians - are deserving of the fullest regard of the church," the Most Rev. Katharine Jefferts Schori declared during an hourlong discussion before services. "We're not going backward."

True, they're going sideways instead of forwards. Interesting to see the comment in the article that says anglican "faith" is for a wide tolerance of views. Where does tolerance come into it? God doesn't tolerate and neither did Christ. What a joke.


If people truly were Christians they would hold the leaders to account to Matthew 18 and 1 Cor 5.

Then if the leaders didn't repent or stand down they would take their families out and away from the covering of those leaders.

By staying in those churches they are supporting and aiding and abbetting said leaders and policies.

Therefore they fall under the leaders sin and rebellion to God's word and His character.

They will be held accountable for their actions on the last day as we all will.

Saying I didn't know or understand won't help as their bibles give all the information they need to take action.

If the Anglican, Roman and other churches had 1000's leave they wouldn't be able to exist.

The reality is that many 1000's of said people are in rebellion to God and his word but are deliberately ignoring their position.

Jesus will say with great sadness "Away from me, I never knew you" to some such.


If people truly were Christians they would hold the leaders to account to Matthew 18 and 1 Cor 5.

Mickmac, this is very true. I’m glad you used scripture to support this fact. And I’m glad to let you know it is very likely there will be a voice to this effect at our Waikato Diocesan synod at Hamilton this weekend.

However, I would like to see you use scripture in the same way to support your following statement;

“Then if the leaders didn't repent or stand down they would take their families out and away from the covering of those leaders.

By staying in those churches they are supporting and aiding and abbetting said leaders and policies.

Therefore they fall under the leaders sin and rebellion to God's word and His character.

They will be held accountable for their actions on the last day as we all will.”

Further, you say;

“If the Anglican, Roman and other churches had 1000's leave they wouldn't be able to exist.”

Have you ever thought that if 1000s had been strong enough to stay and not leave during the tyranny of Laud, if 1000s hadn’t use the doctrine of infant baptism as an excuse for running away, if 1000s had not been seduced by individualistic evangelicalism, or elitist Pentecostalism – then perhaps we would have leaders today that actually reflected the mind of the whole body of Christ.


I agree: God is consistent and does not change His mind. These are times of apostasy; we cannot re-make God in the image of our fallen nature. Christians are "prisoners" of Christ those who are not are similarly prisoners of Satan.


That is right Kevin either you serve God the father or Satan the snake .
Simple as abc , why does religion complicate it ? Makes no sense to me .

Danyl Mclauchlan

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

Deuteronomy 22:23-24

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.

Leviticus 25:44-46

Any questions?


Yes Danyl,

What place do you think Old Testament Law has today in the New Covenant?

What is your understanding of the sin nature as compared to the new nature in Jesus?

Why do you think Jesus came?


I've got a question.

What's your point, Danyl?


Any questions?

Yes here's one:

Why would anyone bother with a troll?


Well said Rick . Jesus freed us from the bondage of old testament law when he allowed his son to die in the name of grace , for the love of his people.

People like Danyl just don't understand the power of the spirit that moves amongst us .
He is a worker for the dark side .

Danyl Mclauchlan

What place do you think Old Testament Law has today in the New Covenant?

Ask Andrei - he quoted Genesis in support of his argument.

What's your point, Danyl?

The point is that a book that can also be quoted to justify rape and slavery is possibly not the most helpful guide to solving contemporary social problems.


If the bible is as flawed as you say Danyl, then you yourself would do well not to base your arguments on extracts from it.


goodbye little boy.



The scripture Andrei quoted was before the Fall-Adam and Eve in the garden, the Law was instituted because of the Fall-no body knew the difference between good and evil.
You quoted Old Testament law that was instituted because of the sin nature. It wasn't perfect but it was the best the the Lord could do for us until Jesus came. The law actually taught humanity what is wrong and what is right-like a school master.

Personally I don't see rape being justified here when the punishment was stoning.

Before Jesus came no one had the capacity to fulfill this statement by Paul

Galatians5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

Hence slavery does not fulfill this law. But under the Old Covenant I would much rather of been a slave to the Jewish nation, than to any other nation in the world at that time. Not perfect but at least I would of been the closest to God I could possibly be.

While to you the Bible is just a book that is hard to understand-especially the words of Jesus and the Epistles, to those who have a personal relationship with the Lord they are Life.
Salvation is a completely personal thing and if everyone had the capacity to love their neighbor as themselves and to do unto others as you would have them do unto you, this world would be a much better place.

Of course that would mean putting away the acts of the old man-the pre salvation you. These include adultery, sodomy, lying, stealing you get the picture-this is all possible through Jesus if you want it.


Hate to bring this up again, but while we are
talking about gays/lesbians
being in leadership etc etc,
why are we not discussing
leaders who have covetness
in their hearts, as NEITHER will enter into the Kindgom of God.

Now I had better get all the scripture right before Servant jumps all over me.I had rather hopoed the Christians reading this would already know of what I speak, and the rest get the gist of it...but for Servants sake I will go find all the scriptures and write them up.
Give me 1/2 hr


Lets start with this.


1 Cor. 15:1: "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and in which you stand By which also you are saved, if you keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scripture." the Gospel consists of Three points according to the apostle Paul.

1) He died for our SINS 2) He was buried (proving he died). 3) He rose again taking up the same body he came in.

The Gospel concerns Gods son and his work for us to remove our sin . If it is FOCUSED (on something else, OR SOMEONE ELSE) other than the cross and his resurrection it is not the gospel of Christ. The Son of God came as the savior (1 Jn 4:14), that he is Lord of the universe (which relates to a triune nature of God). We stand in it by trusting in his work. Salvation is a gift freely given not earned. We work from salvation not toward it. Our part is that we are commissioned to preach it and to make disciples.

2 Cor. 11:3-4 "But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted-- you may well put up with it. (you will have to endure it, or you wear it beautifully, and some do)."

another Jesus - (allos) is a primary word; "else," different (in many applications) The name is the same, its the name Jesus from the Bible but it is not the Jesus of the Bible. He is different one, with some similarities on the surface level.

A different Spirit -(heteros)-to number as opposed to some former person or thing the other of two; referring to quality: that is, one that is not of the same nature, form, class, or kind, to be different.

Another Gospel (heteros) of uncertain affinity; different: altered, strange. It is not the same one Paul preached, it has a qualitative difference.

Alterations of the Christian message have always been with us but not since the beginning of the church have they become so rampant and outrageous. Some of the cults would blush at what is now being said from Christian pulpits.

Paul warns Gal 1:6-9: "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

Another gospel; the same sort"; heteros expresses a qualitative difference and denotes "another of a different sort. "Paul speaks of "a different good (heteros), which is not another" in contrast to any other Gospel which there is none (allos, another like the one he preached),

Angels were always involved in revelation to mankind. Paul under prophetic inspiration warns the believers then and us now of receiving new understanding from a spiritual source that would alter what was first delivered to them. Today so much gets blamed on the Holy Spirit with teachers speaking impromptu from the pulpits.

To be perverted means to twist a thing around, they destroyed it by having additions to grace, distorting the nature of the person and the work of Christ.

To anathematize someone is to label them a false teacher. If someone teaches another gospel that affects who Christ is or how one relates to him , or distorts grace by subtracting or adding any work it becomes another Gospel.They are to be cut off, cast away. anathema- a thing devoted to God without hope of being redeemed, in the O T. if it was an animal it was to be slain; in the N.T. it is person or thing doomed to destruction.

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