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Comments

Matthew

Samuel,

do you know the orthodox meaning of a Christian? Used from the earliest times after Jesus death, resurrection and ascension, it means follower of Christ. Christ himself said that the Church is his bride, and he is the bridegroom. Ultimately, to persecute and hate Christians, is to bring Hitler into the direct judgement of God. Check out Revelation 6.

"You proved my point acid. Look at the second line. Jesus's work was betrayed by St Paul."

St Paul DID NOT betray Jesus' work, in fact, the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write parts of scripture that were circulated and authenticated by the original disciples of Jesus. What you are saying simply is laughable because you as a person (who does not follow Jesus as your Lord and Saviour) is attempting to bring down the foundations that Jesus Christ established. Choose all you like to be or not to be a Christian, but don't expect that you are right regarding the authentic Christian faith when you disagree with its basic articles.

"So he did believe Jesus was the savior and thus was a Christian.

As for his quotes against Christianity- he was a heretic."

Adolf Hitler was a subscriber of Arianism, and New Age beliefs with a Buddhism influence. That includes Eugenics, something that is explicitly anti-Christian. Hitler's actions from the earliest days were not driven by Christian beliefs. Rebellion, is something that has no par tof Christianity.

"Just like Martin Luther, who was a hero of his. The church had been corrupted by the Jews and he had to purify it."

Luther, despite his return to Scripture, has anti-Christian beliefs including removing parts of the canon because they didn't fit into his beliefs.

"Note that in all his quotes he doesn't attack Jesus OR God, suggesting he was a believer, abet an unorthodox one."

I never heard Helen Clark attack Jesus or God in words, but does that make her "an unorthodox [Christian]"? Not that I'm comparing Hitler and Clark overall as people, but your argument is not valid. Hitler rejected Christianity and by extension Jesus Christ himself.

"neither facism nor the Soviet empire were founded on atheism. Unlike religions, atheism doesn't "found" anything."

Yes communism was. Haven't you read what Karl Marx said regarding God, Christianity and Jesus Christ? Communism was founded on Marxism, which makes your claim that "atheism" does found anything wrong.

Samuel Skinner

So Protestants aren't Christians? They turned away from "the Church". Wait- you don't believe they are Christians because he altered the canon... just like the origional church (there are more than 4 gospels).

I was saying the Furher believed St Paul was a traitor to Christ. He didn't attack true Christians- he attacked heretics. How did he know they where heretics? Their beliefs where differant from his. There are many, many precedents. See the Cathars- they were slaughtered to the last man , women and child by the church for heresy.

Eugenics is not explicately antiChristian- it only contradicts YOUR belief. There were many Christian eugenicists- Teddy Rossevelt for starters.

Hitler repeatedly attacked Christianity and St Paul in private- but not God or Jesus once. Given his statements (particularly divine providence and the emphasis on Jews corrupting things) he obviously believed he was cleaning the church of Jewish influence. After all, the surest sign for him the Jews controled something was if someone disagreed with him.

Marxism is atheistic. It is a SUBSECT of communism. There have been theistic forms of communism.

Communism itself is only the idea that the government should own all industries.

peter

I was speaking to an Albanian today. He said that in Kosovo it was not a case of Serbs and Alabanians being opposed. Serbs had no problems with Christian Albanians.

NO it was religious in nature. Albanian MUSLIMS were the target. Thus showing parochical beliefs are a cause of conflict in the world!@

Ricl

"...The ancient virtues of poverty, chastity, and obedience are universally despised..."

Poverty and obedience are not virtues.

You may be looking for Prudence, Temperance or Humility.

Ricl

"...The ancient virtues of poverty, chastity, and obedience are universally despised..."

Poverty and obedience are not virtues.

You may be looking for Prudence, Temperance or Humility.

AcidComments


"Note that in all his quotes he doesn't attack Jesus OR God, suggesting he was a believer, abet an unorthodox one."


Then technically speaking.

Communism is a form of unorthodox Judaism then. Since many of the early founders of Communism/Marxism, etc were from a Jewish background.

since much of Communist doctrine takes an atheist view. Are all atheists actually unorthodox Jews? I think not.

fletch

Geee, some weird and wonderful comments on here; 'The Usual Suspects' trying to equate Christianity and Nazism?

Just because someone says they are a Christian and even may do works in the name of the Lord doesn't mean a thing unless they follow God's will; that is the theme of today's Gospel readings -

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' - Matthew 7:21-23
Danyl Mclauchlan

Just because someone says they are a Christian and even may do works in the name of the Lord doesn't mean a thing unless they follow God's will

Since Hitler claimed to be carrying out 'God's will' on a daily basis that's not a terrible helpful distinction.

dad4justice

Stop talking bloody rubbish Danyl. What a silly person you are.

Ryan Sproull

The God of secular humanism is Nietzsche's Ubermensch

Nietzsche was quite specific about secular humanism (and Buddhism and any other value system akin to Christian selfless morality) is the exact opposite of the health values of the Ubermensch.

Secular humanism says "give to the needy". I can't really imagine Nietzsche saying anything like that, at least explicitly.

Ryan Sproull

And, come on. Secular humanism basically says, "Be sensible and be loving." Just because it doesn't add "or you'll go to hell" or "because God says to", doesn't change the basic message.

fletch

Ryan, to quote ASA Jones at ex-atheist.com -

Secular Humanism teaches us that morality is relative; different people at different times view morality differently. It teaches us that we cannot condemn other cultures for their moral codes, just because we have a different perspective. Because cultures are simply collections of people, to avoid an ad populum fallacy (where right and wrong are determined by majority rule), the argument has to be extended to the individual; just because you and I may have a different perspective on right and wrong than does another person, does not mean that we can condemn them for their personal moral codes. The end result of such a philosophy is that there really isn’t any right or wrong at all.
Ryan Sproull

Fletch,

Madly assuming you're remotely interested, here's what secular humanism's actually about. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism

That is assuming you're not making some kind of hilarious joke by quoting someone who clearly doesn't know what they're talking about.

Do you learn about Christian theology from exchristian.net?

fletch

Ryan, Ms Jones used to be an Atheist and so she knows all the arguments from the other side. She used to argue Christians and try and make them give up their faith but she eventually became a Christian - so, there is hope for you yet!

fletch

ps, I don't see any conflict with what I quoted above with what most Humanists believe.

In fact, Humanism is seen as a religion? -

The Humanists themselves would agree that they adhere to a religious worldview. According to the Humanist Manifestos I & II: Humanism is "a philosophical, religious, and moral point of view."
Atheism leads most Secular Humanists to adopt ethical relativism - the belief that no absolute moral code exists, and therefore man must adjust his ethical standards in each situation according to his own judgment.[David A. Noebel, Understanding the Times: The Religious Worldviews of Our Day and the Search for Truth (Eugene, OR: Harvest House, 1991), p. 200.] If God does not exist, then He cannot establish an absolute moral code. Humanist Max Hocutt says that human beings "may, and do, make up their own rules... Morality is not discovered; it is made."[Max Hocutt, "Toward an Ethic of Mutual Accommodation," in Humanist Ethics, ed. Morris B. Storer (Buffalo: Prometheus Books, 1980), p. 137.]

So, how is the above different from what I quoted? In a humanist worldview there is no set morality; it is decided by each person - eg, Hitler's version of what is right as opposed to Mother Therea's version of right.

Danyl Mclauchlan

how is the above different from what I quoted?

The difference is pretty obvious Fletch - in your original post you stated that secular humanists have no morality and that: 'The end result of such a philosophy is that there really isn’t any right or wrong at all.'

Whereas the excerpt in your subsequent post states: 'Morality is not discovered; it is made.'

So Atheists believe that there is right and wrong, but that its up to us to figure out what those things are.

dad4justice

Danyl I doubt you know what is right or wrong as you argue Hitler was a practicing Christian. What a dimwit .

Ryan Sproull

Ryan, Ms Jones used to be an Atheist and so she knows all the arguments from the other side. She used to argue Christians and try and make them give up their faith but she eventually became a Christian - so, there is hope for you yet!

You're forgetting that I used to be a Christian, studying to be a minister, so by your logic (people who used to be things know best about those things), I know better than you do about Christianity.

It doesn't matter what you think Ms Jones' credentials are. She is demonstrably wrong on this one. What she's thinking of is not secular humanism, but moral relativism.

Ryan Sproull

Fletch,

You're right, there's not necessarily any conflict between moral relativism and secular humanism, and probably plenty of secular humanists are moral relativists, since they're all so keen on being rational. But secular humanism does not preach moral relativism. They just happen to go hand in hand, like Christianity and social conservatism.

If you had similarly quoted an ex-Christian saying that Christianity teaches people to be homophobes, I'd point out the same mistake. Just because many Christians are homophobes, doesn't make homophobia a core teaching of Christianity.

Secular humanism is an ethical framework, like Christianity, Buddhism, hedonism, utilitarianism, etc.

Moral relativism is the metaphysical theory that there is no standard by which any of those frameworks can be judged as good or bad, because "good" and "bad" judgements always refer to ethical frameworks for their meaning.

dad4justice

"You're forgetting that I used to be a Christian, studying to be a minister, so by your logic (people who used to be things know best about those things), I know better than you do about Christianity.'

Never have I read such utter rubbish on the internet Ryan !!

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