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Yes! and we have to fight for all that we are worth.


This certainly seems to be the direction of the west in general. Just a logical extension of the current policies... "Eve's Bite" got it dead right.

Although we note that there will be some youth who will definitely not be open to any new ideas:

"Christian preachers face arrest in Birmingham":~

And yes, I read elsewhere that the cop was a Muslim. Of course we'll be waiting a long time to read about the same thing happenning to a couple of Mormons in a "christian" area anywhere in the world.

Another culture wants to kill our culture but its a race to see if we can commit suicide first.


Social engineering in New Zealand is responsible for the rapid increase of injurious behaviour, vulgarity,violence and profanity. Our state is both anti family and anti God and the shameful standards in our communities are a direct result of a depraved and callous government.


100% correct.

Was it not the Filthy Left who cried we should not pry into another's bedroom habits?

But no, it seems once more that only people who are sexually deviant may have a say. Why NZ tolerates such filth is a mystery.


Interesting little article by Christopher Hitchens' brother Peter (who is - ssshh - an Anglican) along this line of Western civilisational capitulation:~


Peter Hitchens describes a social environment that, historically, is eager to go to war. It should be interesting. Since the first world war destroyed faith in the Church and god, what would a war do to the new found faith in atheism, politics and man? Same result I'd think. People will go running back to some kind of theistic church. When push comes to shove, the mob can't stand to face the abyss alone. All the world needs now is a longish war to bunt it along.


I'm fascinated by this conspiracy theory about the secret liberal agenda, and govt cabals united presumably by some sort of devious sexual kink or another- well, at least these are the recuring 'themes' as you spin them, Ian and ilk....but I'm still not convinced. What would be the payoff
? What would 'THEY' hope to achieve by such 'engineering'? PLease tell because it's still a mystery to me. ????
confused of Tawa


They aren't trying to "achieve" anything, Kabe.
It's personal psychosis projected onto the world. When you're in the grip of an archetype, you don't stop to think what you're achieving.


Ian says:

"A State-backed, anti-family, anti-God agenda is a religion. Nothing more, nothing less"

So what do we want in schools - a pro-god agenda?

As far as I am concerned schools are quite neutral about a god or lack thereof, and that is just as it needs to be.

The question is asked:

"The key issue is whether elected politicians (or unelected bureaucrats) should have the power to socially engineer a society according to their own values."

All values are engineered, some by leadership, some by tradition, some by accident. There has been very strong buy in to the values of tolerance in this diverse world, multiculturalism is a reality not a pipe dream.

Fundamentalists are grumpy because THEY thought they owned goodness but it is clear that they do not and never have. They also refuse to consider situations where neither families nor fundamentalists are taking a hands on interest in the education of the young - preferring to see them drift off in any old direction.

And what is this about anti-family agenda? I have heard of no such thing. On the contrary, the partnership between families and schools is being emphasised more and more now - much more so than in my days of school.

Ian, are you not just indulging in provocative scaremongering?

Our education system has a serious mission to provide comprehensive education to the young. I don't see a new government suddenly saying "no more values education" or even interfering with the content.

Why dont we all leave the boring 1950s behind?


The greatest sins in the liberal world are supposedly intolerance, hypocrisy, and fundamentalism. These are empty phrases used to disguise a latent hostility to any philosophy that challenges the postmodern secular hegemony. After all its deconstruction of modernism and religion, postmodern philosophy ends up in an unfortunate position of being completely unable to discern truth from error.


Ian is of course completely right.

And don't you just get sick to the back teeth of day after day listening to talkback when they ask over and over again...
Well, how did it get this way, and what do we do,
and you ring up year after year, telling them just what Ian has said,
and they STILL ask the same questions.

Talk about blind, deaf and dumb.

Wake up and smell the coffee.
How MANY times do we have to say it.


Paula, saying it is so, doesnt make it so.

The state, via its schools, would not have to take on this role if arents had been more proactive in sex education with their children.

Sex is a very simple function that needs to be dymystified and de stigmatised.

Why can't parents be open in front of their children?


As far as saying it is so, doesn't make it so.

It is LAREADY MADE SO, that is why I have said it.
As Ian has also, as he has written.
He and I are stating a FACT.

Quoting Ian:-
The way I see it, the liberal left's stalking horse is simply a more insidious and dangerous theocracy, hiding under a disguise of alleged secularism simply to throw less intelligent voters off the scent.

A State-backed, anti-family, anti-God agenda is a religion. Nothing more, nothing less


You (and Ian) are making the mistake of seeing everything filtered by your need for religion and are incapable of accepting that religion is not an issue for many of us.

As a secularist, I for example, am anti god, but pro family. My greatest achievement is my two adult children.

If secularism is a religion, where is my church, my catechism? Secularists have no need of these things,, only religionists do.



If under the new order in New Zealand there are to be Re-Education camps run by Christian fundamentalists ..

can I come to your camp, not Ian's?

Ha Ha Ha!!!


Humans are innately religious creatures. I outlined the religious overtones of secularism a few days ago: The God of secular humanism is Nietzsche's Ubermensch, its church is the shopping mall, its power is global capital (and global government), and its act of worship is sensual indulgence.

Christians are rightly skeptical of a teaching profession that various leftist forces have co-opted to become the new priesthood of secular humanism. But Man is not God.


Yes Ropata

It hurts some Christians to know that they are no longer the only bastions of sensual indulgence.

What is a Benny Hinn stadium event but a sensual indulgence? Or the trimmings that go with Bishop Tamaki? All the money that has been poured into architecture and furnishings of churches "for the glory of god" - the vestments that cover the clergy - all to artificially CREATE a sense of awe and authority.

In the modern church services (if they still call them that) - all the theatrics and musical instruments of the rock and roll era. This is the sensual, not the intellectual!

The shopping mall as a church? Lots of people frequent neither. They might go to the mall to shop at a supermarket, they might go to the church for a wedding or funeral, but if possible they bypass BOTH on a Sunday!

School teachers have 25 hours only of a young person's week. The amount of time dedicated to such things as Health and Values education is miniscule compared with work on English, Maths and the academic curriculum.

If parents are skeptical of our quality state education system, then they can spend the countless other hours brain washing these poor kids to believe all sorts of superstition and tradition.

But kids tend to be quite perceptive these days - many will no longer be sold a lemon.


If secularism is a religion, where is my church, my catechism? Secularists have no need of these things,, only religionists do....

Isaiah 14:13-14
For thou has said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, I will sit also upon the mount of the conggregation, in the sides of the north,
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the most high.

Sound like any relation of yours fugley, like a spiritual father, that you follow, in your temple, as you exalt yourself above God.?


Ah you can't use that Peter,
Have you NOT listened to a word I have said.
If you read 2 Corinthians and Paul tells the Corinthians who the false teachers and false apostles and false prophets are, you have BLOWN your total argument.
and read Titus.

I have told you many times, you have chosen not to listen.


Back to the topic at hand, any independent-minded teacher will tell you that T.Col is in the grip of PC ideologues who do not allow dissent, and teachers who do not submit to the approved thought-control are deemed to be some kind of freakish miscreants. Students and teachers alike are told that the totalitarian claims of secularism supersede any other truth claims, and PC mantras are the only way to a just society.

Devoted secularists are uniquely blind to their own lazy prejudices.

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