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Comments

Michael

Sorry but citing some poorly written papers in unusual journals or the hypothetical musings of medicos who should know better hardly disproves Griffin's points that the 60 minutes article was imbalanced and unscientific.

David

But Michael, that is exactly what Wishart does time and time again.

He worships a god that created us with flawed bodies and no knowledge of how to maintain them.

He resents the fact that Man has risen above his god and found cures,or at least relief, for many of the ills we suffer. Ills that he wishes could be cured by prayer alone, but knows in his heart of hearst that when it comes to the crunch, god goes mything.

So, ratther than accept his faith is misplaced and his god is myth, he grasps at the tiniest of straws to "prove" medcine is flawed.

But, as his bible says, "by their deeds ye shall know them", and has he says himself, "follow the money". See where he goes for treatment when he or a family members is ill or injured, it isn't to church, it is off to the ED.

Ian Wishart

Gee, I thought there were no studies, according to the wise ones over at SciMedia.

And David, we took our daughter to ED last Christmas, and the surgeons told us there was no hope, nothing they could do. So we prayed and got the outcome we needed.

God gave us science, he also gave us prayer. What either of these things have to do with the Vitamin C argument being discussed above I have no idea, so I presume you are just another unfocused troll.

Bob Sarver

Checik out www.vitamincfoundation.org for more info on vitamin C and viruses.

John Boy

Not withstanding the story's potential shortcomings I'll take a lucky break and life over scientific puritanism and death. I have a suspicion that if/when Vitamin C can be patented by big business you'll see it suddenly acceptable as a conventional but expensive treatment.

Ross

I thought the situation showed up the blinkered thinking of some in the medical profession. Even if the doctors had doubts about the use of Vit C here was golden opportunity to put it to the test. If they or the hospital were worried about being sued later they could have very easily written a simple
"agreement" and the family would not have worried. We don't learn anything if we don't try new options.
This was a win - win situation. The doctors had nothing to lose as they had already said the machines should be turned off.
We had a similar situation in our extended family -- a guy in his early fifties had a major heart attack. His wife was overseas on business . The doctors said they would keep him going on a machine until his wife got home to say goodbye. While they waited the doctors did some research and found out about a very experimental procedure from Canada. When the wife arrived they discussed it and said there was a 5% chance of success. They took it and tried. That was 9 yrs ago and he is still going strong living an active life.
From what I recall the program said the doctors / hospitals declined the invitation to appear.

Ian Wishart

Funny as all get out:
"Peter Griffin 2 hours ago thanks Ken, I’d wondered what had happened to the High Priest of pseudoscience… interesting cherry-picking from him once again."

So failing to do research about vitamin C and pneumonia or flu is OK for Peter, but I'm "cherrypicking" if I throw up some studies supportive of the idea?

Hack.

david winter

Five hundred ninety-five patients were enrolled and analyzed, 91% of whom were victims of trauma. The relative risk of pulmonary morbidity was 0.81 (95% confidence interval 0.60–1.1)

So the one actual study you cite is about prevention of pneumonia and it shows it doesn't work!

That about says it all.

scrubone

Heh, if you're the high priest of "pseudoscience" Ian, then does that make Ken the high priest of trolling?

david winter

So Ian,

Just for the record, do you admit than only one of the papers you picked is actually a study of what happens when you treat people for pneumonia with VitC, and that was a study on prevention, and it showed vitamin C had no measurable effect?

Penny Bright

Isn't it a no-brainer?

That you see a doctor or go to hospital with the expectation that they will help help you look after your health and do what they can to make you better?

NOT TURN OFF THE LIFE SUPPORT AND KILL YOU - because they are ignorant of alternative therapies THAT WOULD DO NO HARM to try, but SO ARROGANT in their belief that 'they know best' - when their 'best' didn't work?

Remember the 'Oath of Hippocrates'?

Which includes:
"I WILL FOLLOW that method of treatment, which according to my ability and judgment, I consider for the benefit of my patients, and abstain from whatever is deleterious and mischevious. I will give no deadly medicine to anyone if asked, nor suggest any such counsel:.."

HOW IS KILLING YOUR PATIENT BY TURNING OFF LIFE SUPPORT in keeping with this 'Hippocratic Oath'?
Or should it be renamed the 'HYPOCRITIC OATH'?

Penny Bright

Emanuel van den Bemd

You may wonder how it is possible that the medical industry ignores all those well-proven, effective, natural remedies that cost little and enable people to look after their own health. It not only for profit, which is excuse enough, but it also for depopulation.
Sick people and the elderly are useless eaters, better to get rid of them by stealth, ie drugs and vaccines. Believe it or not, that is the policy of the UN and the WHO. (World Homicide Organisation)

Claude Moffat

I have handled serious flu within 3 days by drinking the juice of two squeezed fresh lemons a day. My wife recovered form the flu within two days with the same but with hot water and honey.
That is one for everyone to try for themselves and stop arguing.

Hilary Butler

David, please read the full text article carefully. Note the very low dosages used.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1422648/?tool=pubmed


You say this study showed no benefit? Yet these low dosages achieved this:

"The treatment group had a 57% (95% CI 4–81%) lower incidence of multiple organ failure and a trend toward a reduction in 28-day mortality. These benefits translated into a reduction in resource utilization, as measured by a shorter duration of mechanical ventilation and ICU length of stay. Further, there were no adverse effects attributable to the antioxidants. Specifically, administration of high-dose ascorbate or α-tocopherol did not increase the risk of renal failure or coagulopathy."

If you were in intensive care, with pulmonary problems, would you really consider that this meant vitamin C didn't work?

David, have you done a thorough pubmed search, or a google scholar search to see what HAS been done with regard to the use of VIT C / ICU... and it's outcome with regard to pneumonia or total improvement with regard to survival?

Have you read the only three volume "formal" text of vitamin C written by Professor C. Alan B Clemetson?

If so given that:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12643856 "We confirmed extremely low plasma levels of ascorbic acid following trauma and infection. Maximal early repletion of this vitamin requires rapid pool filling early in the post-injury period using supraphysiologic doses for 3 or more days"

and

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19307892
"Antioxidants (vitamin C and selenium) and trace elements (zinc) become rapidly depleted in critical illness and replacement appears vital to ensure optimal cellular and microvascular function."

... when you put together the details in volume 2, chapter one of Professor Clemetson’s text, relating to vascular changes, with chapter 12 showing what happens during infection if you don't have enough vitamin C,

....along with the many medical articles which shows that ascorbate reverses microcirculatory dysfunction after the onset of sepsis, ….

.... if you were in Mr Smith's position and about to have the plug pulled, would you have wanted vitamin C administered, or not?

Research done by Otago Medical School's Margret Vissers http://www.jleukbio.org/cgi/content/full/81/5/1236 would indicate that in just such a situation of serious illness where a vitamin C deficiency could neutralise exactly the front line defence you would want ~ under Mr Smith's situation.

The latest study on the safety of intravenous vitamin C states:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0011414

" Physicians should inquire about IV vitamin C use in patients with cancer, chronic, untreatable, or intractable conditions and be observant of unexpected harm, drug interactions, or benefit"
~ that such a therapy would be a safe, biologically plausible move to make, wouldn't you agree?

There are many more pubmed references than I have used here, backing up both it's safety, and the biochemical reasons for using it.

Or are you of the mind of most scientists who, in the face of a huge body of medical literature, would rather see patients die, than use intravenous vitamin C?

david winter

Hilary,

I actually just wanted to point out Ian was showing his normal attitude to science. Picking papers that he thinks support his idea, without making an effort to study the literature as a whole and then misrepresenting them (or at least failing to make a genuine effort to understand them).

i didn't say the quoted study showed no benefit, i said it didn't support the idea VitC is helpful in pneumonia. As you say, there is some prior plausability to VitC in helping treat pneumonia, and given the relatively low risk it worth doing some proper trials.

But it's really contemptible that you would claim that "most scientists" would rather see patients die than administer VitC. You can't really believe that can you?

CM

David, these people will believe anything that involves even a hint of a conspiracy. If they can wrap a conspiracy around something, then that will automatically be the most obvious explanation to them.

Hilary Butler

Actually, David, I was waiting for someone to "bite" on that "Contemptible" comment, because it's from a published medical article in which Dr Linus Pauling made that observation.

Anyone who has seen what has happened since the 60 minutes documentary, when other families have subsequently asked New Zealand hospitals to use Vitamin C on their seriously sick relatives... ,.... and the lengths to which hospitals gone to, to prevent being forced into using it so that they don't have to answer questions about more "Allan Smith's"

....
(which you won't know, since you Peter Griffin and CM keep your heads firmly where you won't see evidence that doesn't suit you...)

.... you'd have to suggest that Dr Linus Pauling, double nobel prize winner, might just have got it right when he said that.

Oh, and in another published medical paper, Dr Pauling also commented that of all branches of science, front line physicians did the least thinking for themselves, just doing what they were told to.

Another statement I happen to agree with.

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